Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

[mikeash]

I knew someone would call me out on this Thanks for not letting me down. I'm usually in your camp, believe it or not. I signal my lane changes ~95% of the time? And I get annoyed on major streets and on the highway when people don't signal. I tend not to if 1/ I know nobody is around 2/ Slower speeds (IE, residential) when I'm not changing lanes, but as I gave in my example moving over to a turn lane before the turn. There is one of these a block away from my home, so it was going off all the time.

I don't get it. You're not changing lanes, you're moving over into a turn lane? That's changing lanes, unless I completely misunderstand what you're describing.

As for nobody being around, you may have missed somebody, and signaling is free, so you might as well do it anyway.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

The most common scenario where I get the lane departure warning is when I intentionally want to edge the line to give a truck or a distracted driver a wide margin of error. But I sometimes don't bother with a signal in scenarios like Andrew describes -- there is a turn lane near my house where there is almost never traffic and the speed limit is only 25mph. I guess I just see no reason for the signal. The purpose of the signal is to alert other people to your intentions so that they may proceed safely. If there are no other people in sight, there is no point to making the signal.

I have noticed that the lane departure rumble is slowly conditioning me to use my signal in more cases than I would have done previously, so perhaps I will be less irritating to you in the future. I used to not bother signalling anytime I judged that my actions couldn't affect anyone else, but I'm getting trained to signal like Pavlov's dog.

The question I always ask people about driving is what do they do if they arrive at a traffic signal and it is 3am and you haven't seen a car for the past 30 minutes but the signal is red. Some people will wait for the light to turn green no matter how long it takes. Others will wait a minute or so to see if it turns green and then proceed. I'd treat it as a four way stop, assuming I had good visibility in all directions. I'm going to guess you are more inclined to follow the rules.

Once it's a habit (even though it's like pavlov's dog), you don't think about it anymore, so it shouldn't even cross your mind anymore.

As for the 3am scenario, I actually encountered that in high school. 2am, wide streets, 2-lanes per direction + dedicated left turn lanes, came to a stoplight, didn't see any oncoming cars for a mile in either direction. Waited 5 seconds ... see the other lights were STILL GREEN! waited another 2 seconds and then crossed. Within 10 seconds I see police lights behind me. :cursing: Never did that again. Then again, never have to really, since all major intersections now have magnetic loops built-into the roads to trigger the traffic lights for just these cases.

 

[MarcG]

As for the 3am scenario, I actually encountered that in high school. 2am, wide streets, 2-lanes per direction + dedicated left turn lanes, came to a stoplight, didn't see any oncoming cars for a mile in either direction. Waited 5 seconds ... see the other lights were STILL GREEN! waited another 2 seconds and then crossed. Within 10 seconds I see police lights behind me. :cursing: Never did that again. Then again, never have to really, since all major intersections now have magnetic loops built-into the roads to trigger the traffic lights for just these cases.

7 seconds isn't a very long time to wait for the lights to change :biggrin:

- - - Updated - - -

Ok we're drifting well off-topic now. How about some more news from TMC Connect on the subject of lane keeping? I can't believe those who attended didn't press Tesla harder on the subject...

At TMC Connect today the question of when the version of Autopilot that is currently described on the website would be delivered was asked today of two Tesla employees, Ricardo Reyes, VP of Global Communications, and Marc Wimmershoff who is a Tesla engineer working on the Autopilot software. Neither of them would give a specific timeframe for release of Autopilot.

Wasn't there a Q&A with Marc W. the engineer? I would have asked him at least 10 questions! (define "several months", what's the latest status, has lane keeping been delivered to beta testers, does the existing hardware suite in the S still capable of lane keeping, is self-parking going to be released before/with/after lane keeping, etc. etc..)

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Seriously, have you brought this up to the service center near you?

I haven't because I thought everyone had experienced this and that this was "normal" for the current technology and software in the car. I thought that just like the blind spot warning, it works kind of halfway.

Apparently it's not, so I'll have them look at it next time I bring it in. It makes me wonder whether there are other items that actually aren't working right but I think that's just how it is.

My UHF sound system is mediocre at best, maybe they should look at that too.

 

[mikes_fsd]

I haven't because I thought everyone had experienced this and that this was "normal" for the current technology and software in the car. I thought that just like the blind spot warning, it works kind of halfway.

Apparently it's not, so I'll have them look at it next time I bring it in. It makes me wonder whether there are other items that actually aren't working right but I think that's just how it is.

My UHF sound system is mediocre at best, maybe they should look at that too.

I think it is at least worth the effort to talk to them about it.
Not saying you will like all/any of their answers.

 

[wk057]

Huh. I can't remember it ever going off with a false positive. I've had the BEEP BEEP BEEP YOU'RE GOING TO DIE alert go off 2-3 times when there was nothing there, but that's better than it not going off when there is something there

Yeah, I've noticed when trying to show the feature to some people that on rural 50 MPH roads it doesn't always trigger after coming out of a curve or so. But that's not a false positive. The collision alert I've had happen a few times in situations where I knew it would probably go off, but no false positives there yet either.

I'm curious, and have a question for the OP and those akin: I agree that lane keeping is a really great notion and that would, perhaps, alleviate some strain of your targeted mileage this summer. But it's not complete auto-drive, which means you need to pay attention and stay with the road in any case. Particularly in places with lots of construction and road modification.

*snip*

Does the lack of this feature really take that much away from the experience of the vehicle? Is it really worth the kind of angst that's in this thread?

I believe it does, yes. I used to be able to drive for a whole day straight without stopped for much of anything but fuel. Lately I've been enjoying the supercharger stops more but definitely find myself switching out hands holding the wheel quite a bit more than years ago and doing more to try to keep my arms from getting stiff and irritated from being in the same or similar position for hours. Takes a lot of the enjoyment I used to have out of long drives, which is why autopilot lane keeping was a key selling feature.

Honest question here: why aren't you using your turn signals in that case, and when the lane departure warning bugged you about it, why was your workaround to turn it off rather than to start using your turn signals?

Lack of signaling is something that really bugs me when I'm driving. People are just amazingly bad about it. What baffles me is that it's so easy to do: just move your hand very slightly to turn the signal on when you're making a move. It's basically zero effort. Changing lanes? Signal! Turning? Signal! Nobody's around? I don't care, signal!

I would like to know more about the mentality of people who don't do this, because it baffles and irritates me.

I've had to stop getting worked up about what other people on the road do. If I did I would be irritated to no end.

---

Anyway, was talking over travel plans and I'm officially replacing the next driving trip, a 1600 mile round trip (extended a bit, vs my last drive in an ICE, to go along a supercharger route), that I had planned with plane tickets, and this is pretty much solely based on the lack of lane keeping. I don't share exact upcoming plans publicly, but suffice it to say this particular stretch of driving is exceptionally boring and was in fact planned with autopilot in mind. I was very much looking forward to giving it a shot on this drive so I could just sit back, relax, and watch the road vs having to deal with airports, rentals, etc. I dislike the trip enough that I haven't actually driven to make it in quite a while. Looks like that trend is continuing and is adding to my disappointment in Tesla.

 

[LetsGoFast]

However, given the various studies that show the overwhelming majority believe (in violation of reality) that they are above-average drivers, the implication is that folks that believe they can properly judge with certainty whether a signal is required are, in fact, mistaken. And, after all, they don't call them accidents​ by accident.

Further, by not following the rules of the road continuously, you are adding an admittedly small but non-zero amount of mental processing to your load while driving--evaluating whether signals are required rather than just performing the action by rote.

FWIW, using your turn signal every time you change lanes is not the rule of the road in most jurisdictions. For example, in Virginia, the actual code says "Every driver who intends to back, stop, turn, or partly turn from a direct line shall first see that such movement can be made safely and, whenever the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by such movement, shall give the signals required in this article, plainly visible to the driver of such other vehicle, of his intention to make such movement." (emphasis mine)

I don't really disagree that using a signal every time is a safer practice and I acknowledge that that there might be a case where there is a car that I overlooked.

Also, to be more or less on topic, I still have false alarms on the lane keeping fairly regularly and I'm suprised by those of you who never do. There is one spot I drive over on a regular basis that sets it off each and every time I drive over it. Both my wife and I will often imitate the buzzing sound at the exact moment it is about to go off. It appears to me to be caused by irregularities in the pavement combined with a lane shift to the right. The car has concluded that the lane should go straight when it does not.

 

[Ingineer]

How about some more news from TMC Connect on the subject of lane keeping? I can't believe those who attended didn't press Tesla harder on the subject...

Wasn't there a Q&A with Marc W. the engineer? I would have asked him at least 10 questions! (define "several months", what's the latest status, has lane keeping been delivered to beta testers, does the existing hardware suite in the S still capable of lane keeping, is self-parking going to be released before/with/after lane keeping, etc. etc..)

The Tesla guys clearly weren't going to answer any of those type questions, they definitely got asked! They put up the "Safe Harbor" statement on the screen before the questions and would say something to the effect; "That's an Elon question".

 

[ecarfan]

Wasn't there a Q&A with Marc W. the engineer? I would have asked him at least 10 questions! (define "several months", what's the latest status, has lane keeping been delivered to beta testers, does the existing hardware suite in the S still capable of lane keeping, is self-parking going to be released before/with/after lane keeping, etc. etc..)

Yea there was such a session and he was asked a number of questions about Autopilot and he revealed nothing.

 

[MarcG]

Yea there was such a session and he was asked a number of questions about Autopilot and he revealed nothing.

I'm sure that felt very disappointing. What was the point of his presence then?

 

[Beryl]

Lack of signaling is something that really bugs me when I'm driving. People are just amazingly bad about it. What baffles me is that it's so easy to do: just move your hand very slightly to turn the signal on when you're making a move. It's basically zero effort. Changing lanes? Signal! Turning? Signal! Nobody's around? I don't care, signal!

Totally agree with you! It is not that inconvenient and should ALWAYS be done.

Too bad most Texas don't believe in it. I almost reported a police officer who failed to signal. I decided against it and still may report it anonymously.

In Calif, a turn signal on other cars mean: speed up & don't let them in.

Either things changed significantly since I lived there in the 80s and 90s or So Cal drivers are different. Most folks signaled -- especially on the freeways and would always let you in when you signal.

Regarding the autopilot commitment, I sure hope the Model X comes with it. I want it for my own use and I'm concerned about stock prices if they fail to deliver by then.

 

[thegruf]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...y-drivers-dont-use-turn-signals-55355907.html

"MERIDEN, Conn., March 15 /PRNewswire/ -- A new national survey reveals
that 57% of American drivers admit they don't use their turn signal when
changing lanes, but what is most startling are the excuses drivers gave.
According to Response Insurance, a national car insurer, 42% of those
drivers say they don't have enough time, 23% admit they are just plain "lazy,"
17% don't signal because when they do, they forget to turn it off, 12% admit
they are changing lanes too frequently to bother, 11% say it is not important,
8% say they don't signal because other drivers don't, and perhaps most
disturbing 7% say forgoing the signal "adds excitement to driving."

The Company identified several driver-types when it comes to ignoring turn
signals - Impulsive, Lazy, Forgetful, Swervers, Ostriches, Followers, and the
Dare Devils.
"The bottom line is that most drivers are failing to see the importance of
using their turn signals," noted Mory Katz, Chairman & CEO of Response
Insurance. "But, they are doing so at their own peril - and the peril of
others - since their unanticipated actions cause crashes."
The just released Response Insurance National Driving Habits Survey also
indicated that men are more likely than women to forgo their signal when
changing lanes (62% vs. 53%), as are younger drivers (ages 18-24), 71% of whom
report they don't signal, as compared to 49% of older adults (ages 55-64)."

So which are you? :biggrin:

and if you think that's bad - in the UK the turn signal interpretation is:

Left: means might turn left, might turn right or might be going straight ahead
Right: means might turn right, might turn left or might be going straight ahead
No signal: means might be going straight ahead, might turn left or might be turn right, or could be asleep
Hazards (both turn signals) f* knows but just keep out of their way in case

 

[Ingineer]

I'm sure that felt very disappointing. What was the point of his presence then?

The work they re doing on the autopilot was fascinating to me. I really enjoyed his presentation. All the Tesla guys gave great presentations, but they definitely did not answer those kind of questions. (Dates, etc.) The fact that they work for a heavily scrutinized public company simply prevents them from doing so. I would love answers, but apparently the only one willing to do that is Elon with his occasional tweets.

 

[trils0n]

The work they re doing on the autopilot was fascinating to me. I really enjoyed his presentation. All the Tesla guys gave great presentations, but they definitely did not answer those kind of questions. (Dates, etc.) The fact that they work for a heavily scrutinized public company simply prevents them from doing so. I would love answers, but apparently the only one willing to do that is Elon with his occasional tweets.

I agree, thought his presentation was great, and gave me confidence in Tesla's autopilot development/tuning process. Was nice to hear confirmation of processes many suspected were occurring. (To those who have turned off the lane departure warning -- it might help speed up Tesla's lane keeping tuning to turn it on so they can gather more data)

 

[Auzie]

How about some more news from TMC Connect on the subject of lane keeping? I can't believe those who attended didn't press Tesla harder on the subject...

Wasn't there a Q&A with Marc W. the engineer? I would have asked him at least 10 questions! (define "several months", what's the latest status, has lane keeping been delivered to beta testers, does the existing hardware suite in the S still capable of lane keeping, is self-parking going to be released before/with/after lane keeping, etc. etc..)

It may not be possible to provide meaningful answers to such line of questioning. Pressuring the recipient may not change that fact.

Often (always?) people that work on difficult problems have no view to how, when and where they are going to complete their work 100%, hence any answer given from such position, before the final solution is 100% firmly in hand, is likely to be inaccurate and they are very likely to be held accountable for giving inaccurate answer.

Consequently, people in such positions learn to be evasive and give vague answers or none at all. They can not give something that they do not have.

I'm sure that felt very disappointing. What was the point of his presence then?

Face to face encounter with people that hold high expectations and place demands on Tesla is a powerful driving force for Tesla employees. That engineer is likely to be driven to tap into difficult to reach areas of himself and his team if demands are coming directly from customers.

Deepak said something along these lines during his short moving speech recently: 'I discovered things about myself' etc . That engineer and his team might discover things about themselves they did not know about after being confronted with face to face expectations from customers.

 

[Ugliest1]

and if you think that's bad - in the UK the turn signal interpretation is:

Left: means might turn left, might turn right or might be going straight ahead
Right: means might turn right, might turn left or might be going straight ahead
No signal: means might be going straight ahead, might turn left or might be turn right, or could be asleep
Hazards (both turn signals) f* knows but just keep out of their way in case

Driving in Mexico, a few left turn signal blips on the highway might mean "it's clear in front of me - you're ok to pass". It's less clear about using a turn signal for changing lanes in Mexico or Italy (Rome, anyway), from my experience, since the concept of "lane" seems to be "whatever space my vehicle is currently in". Therefore no need to signal, because you're already there, no matter what those liney things painted on the road are trying to indicate.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe it does, yes. I used to be able to drive for a whole day straight without stopped for much of anything but fuel. Lately I've been enjoying the supercharger stops more but definitely find myself switching out hands holding the wheel quite a bit more than years ago and doing more to try to keep my arms from getting stiff and irritated from being in the same or similar position for hours. Takes a lot of the enjoyment I used to have out of long drives, which is why autopilot lane keeping was a key selling feature.

Good description of the switching out hands - I've noticed the same on long trips in the last year. Prior to last year, for a couple of decades, no road trips to speak of since flying was quicker and "better". However the Model S has brought back road trips - a side benefit I didn't realize when we made the decision to buy the car. But I'll be sticking with old, slow, blind, 2-wheeled (non-D) Sparky so no lane-keeping for me. Have to just do more pushups or something.

 

[wk057]

Good description of the switching out hands - I've noticed the same on long trips in the last year. Prior to last year, for a couple of decades, no road trips to speak of since flying was quicker and "better". However the Model S has brought back road trips - a side benefit I didn't realize when we made the decision to buy the car. But I'll be sticking with old, slow, blind, 2-wheeled (non-D) Sparky so no lane-keeping for me. Have to just do more pushups or something.

Yeah maybe pushups will do it. lol.

For me, it used to be anything under about 800-1000 miles away I don't really prefer to fly. The airport is an hour drive. Need to arrive 90-ish minutes early for security after finding parking because you never know how long that line is going to be. (My closest airport has very little expediting even if you spring for first class.) Then the flight, then deboarding, waiting for your bags, getting a rental, and then driving from the airport to the destination.

For example, my routine NC<->NJ trip (just under 600 milles driving) the door to door time when flying is 5 to 6 hours. In an ICE I can do it in under 8 hours, and in the Model S it takes about 9 on a good day, 10 if I'm not in a rush and hang out shopping at one of the superchargers longer than intended/needed. By spending a few extra hours on the road I don't have to deal with the airport, flight schedules, TSA, plane ticket costs, rental car costs, etc. Well worth it to me.

At about 1000 miles it starts looking more like flying is a better option depending on free time available. 1000 mile drive is maybe 15-16 hours of driving, plus about 4-5 hours of charging. I can still do that in a day by myself, but flying isn't much more time than the 600 mile trip... maybe 1 more hour to come to 6-7 hours door to door time when flying. ~12 to 14 hour difference each way, so looking at a full extra day of travel when driving vs flying.

I'm definitely lowering the bar for mileage where flying is a preferred option lately. I was figuring autopilot would help me keep it where it is, but not looking that way.

 

[Andyw2100]

I've been away from the forums a bit. I see there's been a lot of discussion about the lane departure warning, and someone even referenced the thread I started, but did not link to it. That thread is here:

Lane Departure Warning Sensitivity Options Poll

You'll see that many people experience the false positives. Also a lot of the people who responded to the poll with the first response were very possibly confusing lane departure warning with blind spot assistance.

I actually created a video of some false positives, which is posted in that thread. Below is that video:

Just for good measure, to be 100% certain my wheels were not touching the line at times when the lane departure warning was going off, I also found an area where the center lane markings are notched, to create a real rumble strip effect. I can get the Tesla's system to alert well before the wheels actually create the true vibration caused by reaching the line.

Based on how many people reported the same thing I was seeing, I did not think there was anything wrong with my car. I can certainly ask to have it checked out at my next service visit, but I believe the system is probably simply too sensitive.

Edit: I should have included the following about the video, which I had included when I originally posted it--

"You have to listen carefully, but you can definitely hear the alerts.There are thirteen of them in the approximately two and a half minute video. Obviously I was driving in a way intended to generate these alerts, to demonstrate the fact that the system is overly sensitive. Naturally I didn't drive this way my entire trip, so I edited some dashcam exports together into one video.

You can hear the alerts at approximately :18, :25, :31, :46, :55, 1:03, 1:20, 1:29, 1:43, 1:52, 1:57, 2:16, and 2:21.

My car is a P85D, and my (then) current firmware version is 6.2.2.4.236."

 

[TomServo]

Considering lives are at stake involving any new automotive automation, I can see why Tesla is taking their time, I doubt they could survive a GM like law suit.

Take all the time you need, it's important to get this 100% right. I can wait.

 

[yak-55]

The most common scenario where I get the lane departure warning is when I intentionally want to edge the line to give a truck or a distracted driver a wide margin of error. But I sometimes don't bother with a signal in scenarios like Andrew describes -- there is a turn lane near my house where there is almost never traffic and the speed limit is only 25mph. I guess I just see no reason for the signal. The purpose of the signal is to alert other people to your intentions so that they may proceed safely. If there are no other people in sight, there is no point to making the signal.

I have noticed that the lane departure rumble is slowly conditioning me to use my signal in more cases than I would have done previously, so perhaps I will be less irritating to you in the future. I used to not bother signalling anytime I judged that my actions couldn't affect anyone else, but I'm getting trained to signal like Pavlov's dog.

The question I always ask people about driving is what do they do if they arrive at a traffic signal and it is 3am and you haven't seen a car for the past 30 minutes but the signal is red. Some people will wait for the light to turn green no matter how long it takes. Others will wait a minute or so to see if it turns green and then proceed. I'd treat it as a four way stop, assuming I had good visibility in all directions. I'm going to guess you are more inclined to follow the rules.

I've been rear ended after sitting patiently stopped at a red light at 2am "with no one else around." People who believe "the rules don't apply if no one is watching" are dangerous. Please be careful -- being CERTAIN that NO ONE is around can be very difficult.