Autopilot question

[WannabeOwner]

Without taking the quote out of context

Sorry, I did quote the whole and then thought that my answer didn't make sense and chopped it to the bit I was replying to.

I may have missed the sense of your original, apologies

except when turning on TACC/AP

Unless fixed? (haven't driven an M3 for a couple of months) that in itself is annoying. Is it still the case that you select TACC and the car accelerates to speed limit?

On AP1 there was definitely weirdness about adherence to speed limits (compounded by becoming broken in recent releases)

On a motorway (on TACC or AP) I never had it reduce from 70 MPH (when dashboard speed sign icon changed, e.g. road side fixed sign or gantry / roadworks "read"). But it would based on driver-input (in Model-S that was pull-and-hold TACC stalk, but I take it that is equivalent to Model-3 "tap speed icon")

But on my local road, national speed limit 60 MPH, it would slow down for the 40 MPH in the next village, and speed up when it came out of the limit.

Maybe there is a difference in AP2 between 70 MPH roads and 60 MPH ones? or some other complex-weirdness

 

[MrBadger]

Car still wants to accelerate go to speed limit +/- speed offset. I have however learned this week that even TACC was aware of some corners so can modulate its speed to what it thought it could get away with - my experience of this on AP was what car thought it could get away with and what I thought was sensible differ quite considerably. I am also dubious as to where it is getting its info from - mapping geometry, fleet, cameras etc. What happens if no network etc etc. All unknowns.

AP2 just does not concern itself with speed limits, except on above mentioned scenarios. So don't go driving like your previous AP1 car and expecting it to slow down for the next village. It probably will not. There are just too many variables to say whether it will or wont, but speed limit is not one it currently takes notice of.

Model 3 just has the single stalk combining 'gears' and AP. It also had the speed limit icon on screen and distance/speed dial on steering wheel. So turning on TACC in a windy national is a tap down followed by frantic scrolling down of the steering dial - or relying on any vehicle in front to modulate your speed.

 

[WannabeOwner]

So don't go driving like your previous AP1 car and expecting it to slow down for the next village

I'll give it a go when I get it back from the wrappers, and report back

tap down followed by frantic scrolling down of the steering dial

They could do "hold down" to engage TACC at current speed or tap+tap-and-hold for TACC+AP. Definitely needs some "gesture" as its a bit alarming as it stands

I read something about keeping foot on throttle after engaging as an override, then change speed on dash, then release pedal. Not tried to see if that works though.

 

[Tonybvi]

My Raven X has never slowed down if the speed limit decreases unless I’m on TACC and am following a car which slows.

 

[BZM3]

Perhaps it does that on an AP1 car - what car do you have?

on the Model3, it will only change speed to stick to a changed speedlimit if autosteer is enabled AND this specific situation referred to on page 96 occurs. In normal driving, without this special situation, the model 3 will not automatically adjust its speed in line with speedlimit signs or GPS/map knowledge.

--
Restricted Speed
Autosteer is intended for use only by a fully attentive driver on freeways and highways where access is limited by entry and exit ramps. If you choose to use Autosteer on residential roads, a road without a center divider, or a road where access is not limited, Autosteer may limit the maximum allowed cruising speed and the touchscreen displays a message indicating that speed is restricted. The restricted speed can vary depending on whether or not you've specified a speed limit offset. Although you will be unable to increase the cruising speed, you can select a more restrictive cruising speed by reducing the speed limit offset, if applicable, (see Controlling Speed Assist on page 112) or by manually reducing the set cruising speed (see Changing the Set Speed on page 91).

--

I had this happen to me yesterday on a NSL country lane when the speedlimit changed to 40. The "Autosteer is limited to 63mph" came up first, and then when the speed limit changed to 40, the car's target speed also reduced to 43mph (my offset is +3mph) without my intervention

maybe regulations different here in the US, but i can assure you, with 100 percent certainty, that speed limit changes adjust my speed while on autopilot or TACC. i have a 3 month old model 3. latest hardware and updates.

but i'm unclear... you are recalling an experience you just had yesterday where the speed automatically adjusted based on the reduced speed limit?? so we are in agreement, why are you disagreeing with my post?

 

[WannabeOwner]

you are recalling an experience you just had yesterday where the speed automatically adjusted based on the reduced speed limit??

"As per manual" as I read it, which is "On rural roads [paraphrasing] speed may be reduced below actual speed limit" ... I've always assumed that was a safety feature, and depended on the car's confidence about the actual road.

Experiences in USA will be of little relevance in this UK forum. Loads of regulation differences, apart from anything else.

 

[WannabeOwner]

AP2 just does not concern itself with speed limits, except on above mentioned scenarios. So don't go driving like your previous AP1 car and expecting it to slow down for the next village. It probably will not.

OK, now had the chance to try this properly and it most definitely does change speed on entering the lower speed limit.

I haven't tried it enough to see if it behaves as I had surmised that AP1 vagaries worked ... so this may not be the whole story.

What I did was:

In a 40 MPH section I engaged full AP

Car drove into a 30MPH limit

Dashboard symbol changed from (40) to (30), and at the same time the TACC speed change for 43 to 33 (I have it set to +3 over) and car slowed down.

I had to turn off the road, so wasn't able to drive out further on AP to where there is a (40) as it changes back again (and, indeed, further to the Delimited sign where Nation Limit of (60) would apply)

I'll try some of those what-ifs when I have the chance, but it most definitely did change, by itself [i.e. no need to long-pull the TACC stalk] when I drove from (40) into (30)

That was how it worked on AP1 too. On AP1 I never quite got to the bottom of "when" it did this, but my supposition was that if on Dual Carriageway 70 MPH road it never changed speed autoMagically, but when on National Speed limits it did.

This was a (brand new) MS on 2019.32.12.4

 

[MrBadger]

So we have different behaviour than @Tonybvi reports in his Raven X and not a single post from a UK Model 3 driver reporting this behaviour either except in a restricted road - which is different to normal highway.

So thats confusing.

Definitely nothing within radar range to trigger the slow down?

 

[ElectricJoules]

What I did was:
In a 40 MPH section I engaged full AP
Car drove into a 30MPH limit
Dashboard symbol changed from (40) to (30), and at the same time the TACC speed change for 43 to 33 (I have it set to +3 over) and car slowed down.
This was a (brand new) MS on 2019.32.12.4

I too saw this behaviour today M3 AWD when using autopilot to steer / brake / accelerate. I'm FSD on 2019.36.2.1 software. On entering 30mph zone (about 50 yds after the 30 mph street sign) the TACC speed dropped from 40 to 30, I saw a warning saying autosteer limited to 30mph.
When I left the 30 mph zone the car accelerated to the new 50mph limit.

I even saw a cone or two in the visualisation.

 

[NorfolkMustard]

the TACC speed dropped from 40 to 30, I saw a warning saying autosteer limited to 30mph.
When I left the 30 mph zone the car accelerated to the new 50mph limit.

This is what I had and is what the manual refers to as an exception/restricted road. I wouldn't expect a warning to popup if this was an everyday reaction to a speed limit change.

If it were, I would instead expect it to be similar to what it does at the end of a navigate-on-autopilot at the end of a sliproad where the give-way-line joins a roundabout - the blue circle around the target speed icon spins anti-clockwise and the speed target number reduces in increments

 

[MrBadger]

Just upgraded to 2019.36.2.1 to took it out for a test.

tl;dr - TACC did not respond to change in speed limit.

I had thought that the discrepancy in behaviours may have been down to manual speed override - ie scrolling down the speed on M3 steering wheel.

So I found myself a huge gap on a national speed limit dual carriage way (so 70mph) that had a 50mph section at the end coming up to a junction.
Engaged TACC and left it at 70mph, so no manual override.
Just prior to the 50mph zone, I started catching up to the car in front and the car auto slowed as expected due to speed of vehicle in front (not to be confused with slowing due to change in speed limit).
On entering the 50mph zone, the speed limit sign registered the 50mph speed limit.
But TACC speed limit, ie as in blue on M3, remained at 70mph.

So had the road been clear, it would have remained at 70mph, in a 50mph speed limit correctly recognised by the car.

ie. as per current Model 3 2019.36.1 manual (below) and earlier observations.

 

[MrBadger]

--
Restricted Speed
Autosteer is intended for use only by a fully attentive driver on freeways and highways where access is limited by entry and exit ramps. If you choose to use Autosteer on residential roads, a road without a center divider, or a road where access is not limited, Autosteer may limit the maximum allowed cruising speed and the touchscreen displays a message indicating that speed is restricted. The restricted speed can vary depending on whether or not you've specified a speed limit offset. Although you will be unable to increase the cruising speed, you can select a more restrictive cruising speed by reducing the speed limit offset, if applicable, (see Controlling Speed Assist on page 112) or by manually reducing the set cruising speed (see Changing the Set Speed on page 91).

--

I wonder if the following is also playing a part in some circumstances

In situations where the speed limit cannot be detected when Autosteer is engaged, Autosteer reduces your driving speed and limits the set speed to 70 km/h. Although you can manually accelerate to exceed the limited speed, Model 3 may not brake for detected obstacles. Autosteer slows down to the limited speed when you release the accelerator pedal. When you leave the road, or disengage Autosteer by using the steering wheel, you can increase your set speed again, if desired.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Definitely nothing within radar range to trigger the slow down?

I'v done one single test. I'll check for repeatability, but there wasn't any other traffic that I remember and behaviour was exactly as I used to get on AP1.

I don't use AP (routinely) on non dual-carriageway, so the occasional "has it changed" test hasn't given me a clear picture of what works, and what doesn't. Definitely AP1 became broken on Dual Carriageway when car read e.g. (50) sign, the new speed limit showed on dashboard, and Long Pull of TACC stalk then failed to adopt that speed [i.e. it most definitely used to work correctly] Also, if I manually lowered the speed to, say, 60 and then did Long Pull then TACC went back up to (70) Definitely didn't used to do that. The thread on AP1 development is reckoning that AP1 DEV is dead for Tesla ... but they must have been some DEV for that bug to get introduced ... so maybe it will get fixed

I also have no idea if any of that core-code is shared with AP2 ...

I'll do some further testing to check repeatability and corner-cases and report back

what the manual refers to as an exception/restricted road.

Added to log presence/absence of that warning during my tests

TACC did not respond to change in speed limit

But you were on a (70) road, and my test was on roads with lower speed restrictions. As I said on AP1 I never had a speed change on a (70) road, all mine have been on (60) ones. In typing that it seems more likely that the distinction is "single carriageway", so need to find a short stretch of dual carriageway on a single carriageway A-Road, which also has a lower speed limit on only part of it ...

I wonder if the following is also playing a part in some circumstances

For me that has been different. Engage AP1 on a (60) single carriageway and then after a bit (possibly even a couple of miles) it drops the speed and displays that warning. No idea why some roads do, and some don't. I've had it happen on "major" A-Roads, and not on a B-road with lousy markings

 

[MacJester]

I tested again yesterday, on a drive which took me through a number of up and down limit changes. My car is definitely automatically dropping it’s max speed on autopilot when the limit goes down (albeit a few seconds after passing the sign, when it should be slowing to be at the limit at the sign). It doesn’t increase max speed automatically when the limit increases - to do that I need to tap the speed limit on the screen as suggested above.

 

[WannabeOwner]

lbeit a few seconds after passing the sign, when it should be slowing to be at the limit at the sign

I suspect that is down to the accuracy of the GPS database.

AP1 read the speed sign, the dashboard changed at the moment I passed the sign, and only then did it start slowing down. My assumption is that it saw the sign in good time, just did nothing about it. Dunno whether that was to prevent false positives from e.g. speed signs on slip roads ... no such excuse for a database-based system as it should be able to figure out what seed there are en route. But there is plenty of inaccuracy in the database, which Tesla presumably has no control over.

 

[MrBadger]

I'm off to do some specific tests - I have a good rural route lines up made up of 30/40/50mph zones and some windy corners.

Can I confirm with @WannabeOwner and @MacJester that when the positive speed changes occurred whether you were on a sat nav route and whether you were always seeing this on AP or TACC too? I wasn't planning on putting a route in as I will be driving different route than it would want to take me under route finding conditions but can if it matches test conditions - even though it will want to keep directing me somewhere else.

 

[WannabeOwner]

when the positive speed changes occurred whether you were on a sat nav route and whether you were always seeing this on AP or TACC too?

Might have been on SatNav

Definitely on AP (but suspect that TACC would do it too)

All good parameter combinations to test though ... Tests probably going up by at least the square of the parameter-count

I reckon that if testing on TACC, first, exhibits "desired" behaviour then With/WithOut SatNav and AP will also. But ...

 

[MacJester]

I'm off to do some specific tests - I have a good rural route lines up made up of 30/40/50mph zones and some windy corners.

Can I confirm with @WannabeOwner and @MacJester that when the positive speed changes occurred whether you were on a sat nav route and whether you were always seeing this on AP or TACC too? I wasn't planning on putting a route in as I will be driving different route than it would want to take me under route finding conditions but can if it matches test conditions - even though it will want to keep directing me somewhere else.

definitely worked when I was on a satnav route and AP. Not tested with TACC alone. I think it work when not on a satnav route but again not specifically tested.

 

[MrBadger]

Well no wonder there are mixed responses.

tl;dr - speed control may work, or may not - I suspect its work in progress.

I had chosen a mix of 30/40/50 mph A and B roads, and some NoA on motorway for good measure on return. For those that know the area, its basically Camberley local (40), Maultway to Gordons roundabout via Red Road (50/40), then out to Chobham (40/30), then out to Ottershaw (30/40/50/30). I then looped back via St Peters to M25 (50), M25 to M3 (70), M3 (50/70)

What I witnessed was.

• Speed of car will slow below TACC limit for some corners, but too others faster than I would have liked so didn't slow
• TACC speed limit (in blue) can change (up as well as down), even when there is no speed limit change - stale limits or something else going on? See also last point.
• Just because speed limit changes and is recognised, doesn't mean TACC limit will change so car will not slow - came out of 50 into a 30 still at 50 ... had to manually brake for 30 leading up to Ottershaw roundabout.
• NoA seems to be speed limit aware in some circumstances. For instance M25 to M3 intersection which is 70/50/70, TACC speed recognised this but speed limit on screen said 70. At one point TACC was telling me 55 part way through the intersection - I was not on +/- offset so conflict between road speed limit (50), TACC (55) and screen speed limit (70)
• Now the interesting one. A short distance from transitioning from 50 limit to 70, TACC limit automatically raised to 70 at the next gantry...

I wish I had video'd this and I think the above is correct from memory, but even if not, the transition events were read, maybe just not the quoted speeds.

Was pleasantly surprised by slowing down at some roundabouts - M3 J5 southbound before return back to fleet services.

Had NoA turn itself off couple of times - never had that before except for bad weather

Noticed screen flicker couple of times - never seen that.


What I take from this is, sometimes the car will slow for 'things', sometimes It won't. Jury out on what 'things' are and what makes it slow and what doesn't.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Just because speed limit changes and is recognised, doesn't mean TACC limit will change so car will not slow

Dual or Single carriageway? My new theory is that TACC speed change only occurs on single carriageway (when speed limit change is also displayed ... which itself depends on GPS location from database)