Blue Star Wish List

[richkae]

I'd be very happy with a 100 mile range car as my second car after the Model S.

I want a better looking car than the Leaf. I like the look of the Model S but the front end is wastefully long.
Regarding size, the Fusion is too long and wide and the Leaf is too tall, I want something smaller. A lot smaller than the Model S.
I also went better aerodynamics than the Leaf.

Being a little more realistic than the people calling for a 400 mile car, I'd hope for a $30000 110 mile car ( 24kW ), a $35000 165 mile car ( 36kW ), a $40000 220 mile car ( 48kW )
Those prices are before rebate, letting you get into a 110 mile Bluestar for $22500, and the 165 mile car would compete at the Leaf price point.
( I'm hoping that better aerodynamics and added lightness will get more range pew kWh than the Leaf or the Model S )

 

[AnOutsider]

Wasn't the bluestar supposed to be the car for the masses? Honestly I would prefer competing with the Civic and Corolla and not BMW. I would love to see a base around 25k for a stylish car that has 160-200 mile range. I know the Leaf with its 100 miles is $32k but I am hoping with the advances in battery technology in the next few years before the bluestar comes out that a lower price point can be reached. In any case, I personally would focus more on affordability than 0-60 times.

I don't know that tesla ever expects to compete with the Honda and Toyota levels of cars. Brand image aside, I can't see battery prices coming down that much so soon.

 

[TEG]

They should 'benchmark' the Lexus CT200h too...

 

[Norbert]

Wasn't the bluestar supposed to be the car for the masses?

The plans we heard so far are a volume of 200,000 per year and a price of $30k (surely after tax credit). That's about the same as the current Nissan Leaf SL, and the intent is that it will also come with "premium" attributes. How much you will get for that price (if it remains the same) will largely depend on the progress of battery technology.

Honestly I would prefer competing with the Civic and Corolla and not BMW. I would love to see a base around 25k for a stylish car that has 160-200 mile range. I know the Leaf with its 100 miles is $32k but I am hoping with the advances in battery technology in the next few years before the bluestar comes out that a lower price point can be reached. In any case, I personally would focus more on affordability than 0-60 times.

Again, the Leaf doesn't even make profit, and Tesla will go there in steps. Perhaps Tesla will be able to reduce the price later-on, once battery prices decrease further, but I wouldn't expect a lower price at the time of introduction.

 

[Robert.Boston]

They should 'benchmark' the Lexus CT200h too...

Agree; that's a very functional car that's selling reasonably well. Base price: $30k. Price nicely equipped: $37k.

 

[TEG]

With the Toyota partnership, sharing some high volume (=cost effective) parts with CT200h, Prius, etc., could be in the realm of possibility.
I stop short of sugging a RAV4EV like drivetrain drop in... I don't think Tesla would want their own name on a front-wheel drive car, and would probably want a "from scratch" chassis with full control over the exterior styling.

 

[TEG]

Wishlist...
Same general size, shape, and price as the Nissan LEAF.
Possibly a bit less tall as LEAF seems designed with headroom for 7' tall people. (Sorry really tall people...)
Better styling.
Better performance.
More range.
Faster AC charging. (10kW & optional 20kW like Model S.)
J1772, and Tesla connector.
Possibly have to include CHAdeMO support if it is widely deployed at that time.
Rear wheel drive, not front wheel drive.
Standard NAV system with back-up camera, and charging location updates overlaid on the map.
Keyless entry. Standard bluetooth handsfree.
Very quiet ride even at freeway speeds.
LED lights everywhere including headlights. (No incadescents.)
Yellow turn rear turn signal indicators.
Armrests on door and center console, and reasonable cupholders.
Decent quality audio system that plays MP3s, and possibly streaming services.

 

[GSP]

With apologies to TEG:

Wishlist...
Same general size, shape, and price as the CHEVROLET VOLT (w/ rear bucket - 4 passenger seating)
Possibly a bit less tall as the Volt (but without reducing headroom)
Nice Styling (like the Volt, A3, Model S, etc)
Better performance (0-60 in 7.0 sec, 112 mph top speed)
More range (150-200 EPA miles, no ICE range extender)
Faster AC charging: 10kW J1772 (w/o adapter)
Fast DC charging (with whatever connector that will become the North American, and hopefully World, standard)
FRONT wheel drive, not REAR wheel drive. (with 52/48% weight distribution and computer controlled differential locking clutch)
OPTIONAL NAV system with back-up camera, and charging location updates overlaid on the map.
Keyless entry. Standard bluetooth handsfree.
Very quiet ride even at freeway speeds.
LED lights everywhere including headlights. (No incadescents.)
Yellow turn rear turn signal indicators.
Armrests on door and center console, and reasonable cupholders. (reasonable would be two in the center console, one in each of the four doors, and two in the rear console between the seats.)
Decent quality audio system that plays MP3s, and possibly streaming services.

Vehicle dynamics comparable to the BMW 3-series
Heated seats for all passengers and heated steering wheel.
Better defroster and better preconditioning than the Volt
Fording capability similar to other cars. About 40" without any damage.

GSP

 

[AnOutsider]

With the Toyota partnership, sharing some high volume (=cost effective) parts with CT200h, Prius, etc., could be in the realm of possibility.
I stop short of sugging a RAV4EV like drivetrain drop in... I don't think Tesla would want their own name on a front-wheel drive car, and would probably want a "from scratch" chassis with full control over the exterior styling.

Especially if the roadster will be on the same platform. Why rear wheel over front wheel? Just curious.

 

[TEG]

...Why rear wheel over front wheel? Just curious.

Multiple reasons starting out with:
#1: As you accelerate hard, weight bias shifts rearward so you get better "off the line" traction with RWD.
#2: No threat of torque steer.
#3: 'Fishtail' powerslide can be fun.

Someone could debate merits of FWD, but in Tesla/BMW/Mercedes/Ferrari/etc tradition, RWD sports sedan trumps FWD.

 

[TEG]

...
FRONT wheel drive, not REAR wheel drive. (with 52/48% weight distribution and computer controlled differential locking clutch)
...

I think BMW style 50/50 weight distribution (with the weight shared equally between all 4 wheels) is preferable...

 

[AnOutsider]

Gotcha. I've always had AWD or FWD vehicles, so I can't directly compare. I'm told RWD is worse in inclement weather though. Also, I'm probably just used to it, but rather than feeling like I'm experiencing oversteer, I feel like I have more control.

 

[TEG]

Yes, keeping inexperienced drivers from spinning out on ice/snow is a big argument for FWD...
I am old enough to remember when RWD was "normal" and FWD was "some weird new thing".
The main arugment then was improved effeciency, but Tesla wouldn't have that issue since there is no drive-shaft, and the motor is coupled to a differential directly.

 

[AnOutsider]

Well I plan to hit the track with my S as soon as I can, so plenty of time to get used to the drivetrain

 

[GSP]

Yes, keeping inexperienced drivers from spinning out on ice/snow is a big argument for FWD....

This is the primary reason I put FWD on my wishlist. It may be less important these days with stability control on all new cars.

Your reasons for preferring RWD and 50/50 weight distribution are all good, and more appropriate for a performance brand like Tesla.

I still prefer the "weird new thing" however, and I like having some extra weight on the drive wheels for traction. FWD has some packaging advantages, but on the other hand the Model S configuration may be even better......

GSP

 

[smorgasbord]

...keeping inexperienced drivers from spinning out on ice/snow is a big argument for FWD...

I thought that was the only reason, and it only worked because the heavy engine was upfront. With a better weight distribution, you're better off with rear tires for the propulsion and front for steering.

 

[TEG]

I thought that was the only reason, and it only worked because the heavy engine was upfront. With a better weight distribution, you're better off with rear tires for the propulsion and front for steering.

Back in the day, rear wheel drive cars tended to have the engine up front and a driveshaft fore/aft which hurt efficiency. When fuel economy started to become more of a consideration, engineers proved that a front-engine/transaxle could improve fuel mileage.

Also, it isn't just about traction, but rather having wheel slippage in FWD cars result in understeer not oversteer. I think having the rear end swing around with RWD was considered more unsafe and harder to recover.

Also with weight bias shifting forward during deceleration there tends to be a forward bias on the brakes, which could suggest more regen possible in FWD than RWD, at least for very heavy regen.

Anyways, we could probably go back and forth on FWD vs RWD, but my vote goes for RWD. (And Roadster + Model S are RWD so it seems that may be their future direction even if most of the entry EV sedan competition is using FWD.)

 

[Bearman]

I prefer RWD, the car is just more fun to drive. Even Audi has, in recent years, switched from an all-wheel drive system that favored the front wheels to a rear-wheel-biased one.
RWD's just handles better especially when you have torque, fwd is just ok in the winter when your not trying to have fun

 

[GSP]

I realize this is not the "FWD vs. RWD" thread, but I do prefer FWD hatchbacks for my B/C segment around town everyday driver. This is what I would look for for my "BlueStar" EV.

FWD may or may not be the best choice for Tesla, but it has worked well for many, many, successful cars. Consider how well the Mini has done, and it is produced by a company that was extremely biased toward RWD.

FWD is not only safer at the limit, and better for regen, it is PLENTY of fun to drive. Just ask Erik Carlsson. If you have ever driven or autocrossed a SAAB, Mini, GTI, etc, they do not disappoint.

Erik Carlsson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand that RWD has its advantages as well, and is required for ultra high performance and racing. But in everyday use, this is not so important, and FWD cars win out in the marketplace for small and midsized affordable cars like the BlueStar.

GSP

PS. For larger cars and sports cars RWD is the way to go, and the Model S archecture is absolutely brilliant. It may scale down to the BlueStar OK. However, Tesla would be well advised to look very carefully at rear-engine RWD cars that have come (and gone) before in the BlueStar's segment, and examine their technical merits and commercial viability. It will be very interesting to see what Tesla does.

 

[jcstp]

Ok you all look at the FWD and RWD thing, based on ICE-car experiences!

The LEAF is FWD because it's based on a ICE-chassis! And it made it easy to integrate in their factory! The LEAF is constructed as if it where a IcE-car!
This are elements TESLA does not have to concern about!
TESLA it's only concern is what is best in a EV!

With lots of torque, RWD is best! When taking of, weight shifts to the rear, giving rear-tires more traction! In a FWD it reduces traction on the front-wheels and increases tirewear compared to a RWD!
Also a disadvantage of FWD is that with high torquing-engines you feel vibration in the steering! To reduce this constructors have invented very complex suspensions! These are not cheap and only available on the most sporty models!
Constructors of ICE-cars use also FWD because it's cheaper to construct! (no axle from front to rear)
But Tesla it's "engine" is located between the rear wheels! So it's direct where the traction is needed!

An other disadvantage of FWD is that steering and propulsion are united in one! This is again complex and gets lots of strain on the drivetrain! With low-torque ICE-engines this is not so important, but with high torque engines it is! Lots of powerful petrol and diesel FWD cars have oilleaks where the shafts and steering join after many years of use! Sometimes they just break!

So thinking FWD will be cheaper, is not so obvious! With EV's I rather think the contrary! (unless TESLA wants a profitable servicing-team) :wink:

Of what I have seen on video of the roadsters in precair conditions, TESLA has it's traction-control very well sorted out! So i would not worry RWD with TESLA's in rain and snow!