-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
BMW i3
- Thread starter gregincal
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Electric Vehicles
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't agree. This is completely a BMW fail. BMW worked hand and hand with CARB to draft the "BEVx" exception to the BEV rule (in fact, it was BMW that brought it up). They can't turn around and blame CARB for it, as they made the choice themselves to do so.
The specifications of the BEVx is designed to exclude the Volt, while being inclusive of the i3 REx. That's why that "mountain mode" exclusion is there (Volt has it, the US market i3 REx doesn't).
Why did it push the range extender beyond its limit? He made it to the summit, after all, without even driving any slower than the other cars. The European version - which allows for the range extender to be switched on manually - probably would have coped better, though.
surfingslovak
Member
Yes, but it's incorrect to assume that the Air Resources Board simply took everything that BMW wanted, and wrote it down in the form of BEVx regulation. There is always a baseline you can assume to be safe, and you can work off in terms of design, and if a certain rule is overturned or a lower limit is set, all you can do is hope that it will be changed in the future. Particularly if this happens at a late stage of the process, as it often is with regulatory stuff.
One could argue that this is what nixed the white HOV stickers, and rendered the REx trim significantly limited on trips to the mountains. Personally, I assumed 20% charge-sustaining mode when answering to the gentlemen in San Diego. This would be the same as the Volt. I never considered that the i3 REx would deplete its battery to 6.5% before starting the range extender, in addition to not having a mountain hold mode, which we knew from the beginning. This SOC level is too low for any higher-speed mountain passes, such as I-80 en-route to Lake Tahoe.
In response, BMW could deploy a higher-power range extender, but readying that for production would take some time. They have reportedly already increased the maximum power output of the existing engine from 25 kW to 28 kW, which is a step in the right direction, but not enough to fully mitigate the impact of 6.5% SOC on mountain worthiness of the i3.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes, the point of the report was that Don was able to make the trip, despite this being the highest-elevation paved road in the US. It was previously claimed that the i3 REx won't make it to much lower elevation, such as Julian near San Diego. In that context, Don's trip took the mountain challenge to an extreme, and provided some valuable real-world data and insights.
It's a bit disappointing to see that EV enthusiasts would discount a vehicle or voice vocal opposition based on made-up "facts" just because it's not to their liking. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. It's that simple. There is no need to disparage a plug-in product. There is enough people out there who want to do that already. We are all on the same side.
Last edited:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Obviously CARB didn't take everything BMW demanded to the letter and made it into the regulation, but they negotiated and BMW was quite happy with the results (while GM was extremely unhappy if you looked at the public comments, as GM's suggestions were largely denied). So BMW has no position to blame CARB, as they largely got what they wanted in that rule (CARB took most of their suggestions). BMW could have been like GM and simply accepted that the i3 REx was a PHEV/TZEV, but they chose to suggest CARB to create a new BEVx category. This was a choice that BMW actively made and pushed for, not CARB, and I find it unfair that people are now pointing the finger at CARB.
It's surprising to still hear the HOV stickers talked about (esp. when I hear it from i3 owners who should know better than the general public). It was very clear from BMW's PR that BMW NEVER expected to get white HOV stickers for the i3 REx. They always expected green stickers, but the media and people keep assuming that somehow it got disqualified from the white ones. Keep in mind the BEVx exception ONLY applies to ZEV credits. It does not have anything to do with the HOV stickers (which do not have a BEVx category, only the TZEV category).
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/16/bmw-i3-green-white-hov-sticker-california/
The i3 REx can't possibly have the amount of EV range that it does without depleting the battery that low (given the battery size). This was a design choice that applies to the i3 REx across the world (not BEVx related). The main difference in the US is the lack of a mountain mode and a slightly smaller gas tank.
thanks, ecarfan! I did not get the Rex... jumped in with both feet. Georgia does not offer the tax incentive for the Rex version, but I wasn't interested anyway. I would be happy to never pump gas again. Hard to say about range at this point. I work from home and am in and out throughout a typical day, so I plug into our home charging station each time - it always has plenty of charge for whatever I want to do.
I did have some intense range anxiety and a close call right out of the gate when I took the car for PhotoSync window tinting 43 miles away. I asked the guy to charge it while he worked, which was not a problem, but he forgot! Remembering that I have an app, I checked midday and saw the car had not charged, and I knew I was in trouble (funniest part of the story is his reaction when I called and told him I knew it wasn't charging!). Had I experienced a public charging station beforehand, it would have been far less stressful! Certainly, people need to be educated in this area. The car will locate nearby charging stations and I can assure all it does not include Superchargers on the list!
It is such a joy to be able to idle in guilt-free, air-conditioned comfort AND to let my dogs do the same! That was one of our favorite features of the Tesla and I was thrilled to see the i3 had that capability as well.
I did have some intense range anxiety and a close call right out of the gate when I took the car for PhotoSync window tinting 43 miles away. I asked the guy to charge it while he worked, which was not a problem, but he forgot! Remembering that I have an app, I checked midday and saw the car had not charged, and I knew I was in trouble (funniest part of the story is his reaction when I called and told him I knew it wasn't charging!). Had I experienced a public charging station beforehand, it would have been far less stressful! Certainly, people need to be educated in this area. The car will locate nearby charging stations and I can assure all it does not include Superchargers on the list!
It is such a joy to be able to idle in guilt-free, air-conditioned comfort AND to let my dogs do the same! That was one of our favorite features of the Tesla and I was thrilled to see the i3 had that capability as well.
Reply to note: BMW i3 at a Supercharger - Page 5
Reply to: andiwithani
Not to pop your bubble, but your i3 if when driven with fun and zippy speed will give you the same range anxiety as you had in the Leaf with your friend. You really can't go much farther than what your friend can do in his/her Leaf, except you paid 10 to 15 grand more for that BMW tag, and two doors less and one seat less in the back and much less cargo space.
Reply to: andiwithani
Not to pop your bubble, but your i3 if when driven with fun and zippy speed will give you the same range anxiety as you had in the Leaf with your friend. You really can't go much farther than what your friend can do in his/her Leaf, except you paid 10 to 15 grand more for that BMW tag, and two doors less and one seat less in the back and much less cargo space.
Last edited by a moderator:
Luckily her bubble is constructed of carbon fiber.
For many who live in city or suburbs, 50 miles a day happens infrequently and the average is closer to 15.
The i3 is perfect for this kind of driver.
Range anxiety is so relative. For me the Model S has sufficient range. I have friends who cringe at the idea of only being able to travel 250 miles at a time.
And BTW....The 10 grand extra buys a whole lot nicer car inside and out.
For many who live in city or suburbs, 50 miles a day happens infrequently and the average is closer to 15.
The i3 is perfect for this kind of driver.
Range anxiety is so relative. For me the Model S has sufficient range. I have friends who cringe at the idea of only being able to travel 250 miles at a time.
And BTW....The 10 grand extra buys a whole lot nicer car inside and out.
scottf200
Well-Known Member
80 mile range gets old quick. No heat, no air conditioning, and driving under the speed limit didn't cut it for me after three years of Leaf ownership. My Tesla is a revelation. If Nissan ups the range to 120 I will buy one for surfing and my commute and my wife will inherit the Model S. The range of all the current EV's is just such a let down.
- - - Updated - - -
Save your money and get a Leaf. They have some great lease deals. If the range was better the i3 would be more attractive. Just my opinion, practical i'll admit, but I had a Leaf, test drove the i3 and currently own a Model S so my two cents may be worth something. (hope that didn't come off as condescending)
It's a niche car no doubt.
But do not be so fast to dismiss it.
If you read the i3 Forums you will find a lot of very happy owners, just as you find many happy Model S owners here.
I truly suits the primary needs for fast and fun transportation for some people.
But do not be so fast to dismiss it.
If you read the i3 Forums you will find a lot of very happy owners, just as you find many happy Model S owners here.
I truly suits the primary needs for fast and fun transportation for some people.
Just had to share this from the BMW i3 Facebook group. BMW has a long way to go...
"I have been needing to get my license plate installed by the dealer, so I called BMW of Austin ahead of time to see if I could make an appointment. They said I didn't need one and to just bring it in. Today I was ready to take it in, and was very low on battery - I had either enough to make it home or to the dealer, but not both. So just to be sure, I called in again and explained the situation, and asked if they could charge it up while I waited. She seemed confused about what to do, and didn't know if they had a charger in service. After transferring me, I wound up in someone's voicemail.I called back and got someone else, who said it would be no problem at all. I brought it in, gave them the front license plate and bracket, and showed them the three sticky spots on the windshield that also needed to be removed from the inventory stickers (it was a different dealer that sold it to us), and again explained I was literally at 1 mile of charge; so I sat to wait.
Over an hour later, they had the sticker adhesive removed and the license plate installed, but no charge! The very apologetic service coordinator told me that I would have to get in the car and drive around to the other side of the property, by the new cars, and that someone there could help me. So I drove around the complex, while she ran along in the parking lot to show me where it was. Eventually I found it, and not only was it blocked, but the spots were taken by gas cars! I waited about 10 minutes while they went to find the keys, came out a couple of times and eventually moved a car. They said nothing about needing a Chargepoint card, which i eventually found in the car and got charging. Now I'm sitting back inside for another hour to have a reasonable amount of charge. The twenty minutes I spent getting in the car and getting it charging were a complete waste of time.
I don't know that they could have had it charging any faster, but based on the work that needed to be done, it seems like they could have removed some glue while it was charging - especially after I had told three different people that I was on 1 mile of charge.
Why in the world would the dealer not have a charger anywhere but out front, and have it be a pay charger?
Why wouldn't the dealer coordinate charging as part of the service to an electric car without me even asking?
Sitting inside, they have a barista; three desks with phones; an aquarium, a second coffee station with cookies and drinks; an awesome kids play area, big comfy chairs to watch Judge Judy; and just the right amount of air conditioning. BMW needs to figure out that us electric drivers need a different kind of attention that requires their staff to be trained for the variety of situations we find ourselves in when we come in for service."
"I have been needing to get my license plate installed by the dealer, so I called BMW of Austin ahead of time to see if I could make an appointment. They said I didn't need one and to just bring it in. Today I was ready to take it in, and was very low on battery - I had either enough to make it home or to the dealer, but not both. So just to be sure, I called in again and explained the situation, and asked if they could charge it up while I waited. She seemed confused about what to do, and didn't know if they had a charger in service. After transferring me, I wound up in someone's voicemail.I called back and got someone else, who said it would be no problem at all. I brought it in, gave them the front license plate and bracket, and showed them the three sticky spots on the windshield that also needed to be removed from the inventory stickers (it was a different dealer that sold it to us), and again explained I was literally at 1 mile of charge; so I sat to wait.
Over an hour later, they had the sticker adhesive removed and the license plate installed, but no charge! The very apologetic service coordinator told me that I would have to get in the car and drive around to the other side of the property, by the new cars, and that someone there could help me. So I drove around the complex, while she ran along in the parking lot to show me where it was. Eventually I found it, and not only was it blocked, but the spots were taken by gas cars! I waited about 10 minutes while they went to find the keys, came out a couple of times and eventually moved a car. They said nothing about needing a Chargepoint card, which i eventually found in the car and got charging. Now I'm sitting back inside for another hour to have a reasonable amount of charge. The twenty minutes I spent getting in the car and getting it charging were a complete waste of time.
I don't know that they could have had it charging any faster, but based on the work that needed to be done, it seems like they could have removed some glue while it was charging - especially after I had told three different people that I was on 1 mile of charge.
Why in the world would the dealer not have a charger anywhere but out front, and have it be a pay charger?
Why wouldn't the dealer coordinate charging as part of the service to an electric car without me even asking?
Sitting inside, they have a barista; three desks with phones; an aquarium, a second coffee station with cookies and drinks; an awesome kids play area, big comfy chairs to watch Judge Judy; and just the right amount of air conditioning. BMW needs to figure out that us electric drivers need a different kind of attention that requires their staff to be trained for the variety of situations we find ourselves in when we come in for service."
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I test drove the i3 today. Pros: Visibility was great (although I think the Tesla's side mirrors give more visibility), and the car felt light weight. Regen was strong, and very linear, but it felt like the friction brakes did a lot of hidden work to make it feel that way. I didn't like the eco materials. If people are complaining about the Tesla's interior feeling cheap, this is worse. Slalom and lane changes didn't feel like I remember my old BMW feeling. Weight shifted in a weird way maybe? Shifter is weird, not sure of the point behind its design. Was thoroughly unimpressed -- the driving experience didn't wow me like the Tesla did. I like BMWs and have owned them, and this didn't feel like one, it was missing the ultimate driving machine element.
Another note:
I drove this car at the National Drive Electric Week event in Cupertino. The kid who chaperoned me was an employee of a local dealer. It was his first day on the job, and he had to present the car at a EV enthusiast event. He knew nothing of the car. He claimed it was front wheel drive, built on a Mini chassis, and didn't believe me when I said otherwise. Great to know the local dealers really want to sell this car, and their best people are put on the job
. Also, I was told both of the test drive cars had "drivetrain issues" and that slowed down the test drives.
Another note:
I drove this car at the National Drive Electric Week event in Cupertino. The kid who chaperoned me was an employee of a local dealer. It was his first day on the job, and he had to present the car at a EV enthusiast event. He knew nothing of the car. He claimed it was front wheel drive, built on a Mini chassis, and didn't believe me when I said otherwise. Great to know the local dealers really want to sell this car, and their best people are put on the job
. Also, I was told both of the test drive cars had "drivetrain issues" and that slowed down the test drives.
wraithnot
Model 3 VIN #2942 Model S VIN #5785
I must admit I'm a bit surprised at how this turned out, but we were in the market for a second EV to serve as a commuting/city car and my wife settled on an Andesite Silver i3 BEV with the "Tera World" trim level, parking assist package, technology + driving assist package, heated seats, premium sound, and DC fast charging.
The styling is certainly a bit out there and I vetoed several of the color combinations since they simply hurt my eyeballs too much (especially the Capparis white and black- my wife refers to those as "skunks"). The interior on the "Giga world" trim level is also pretty unattractive and only comes in one color combination so if you want satellite radio, a built-in garage opener, or the "comfort access" keyless entry, you either have to shield your eyes or go for the top "Tera World" trim level.
My wife commutes to San Francisco about twice a week and she takes the Model S on days when she will be driving during carpool lane hours and she takes her Acura TL if she goes in at other times. The parking spots near her office are really tight- parking the Acura is a pain and parking the Model S is even worse. The i3 fits the bill perfectly because it is tiny, gets carpool lane access in California, the parking sensors and backup camera are fantastic, and the turning radius is great (it can even parallel park itself, although we haven't tried out this feature yet). My wife also says the seats are the most comfortable vehicle seats she's ever sat in, although I only found them slightly better than the seats in the Model S. The regen is perfect for one-pedal driving and it's got all the modern adaptive-cruise control, collision avoidance, speed-sign recognition, etc. that wasn't available when I reserved my model S. While the Tesla is a much better vehicle in almost all respects, BMW really nailed the regen and back-up camera and I hope Tesla copies those features at some point. The i3 is very responsive and while it doesn't have the mind-blowing acceleration of a Model S, it has more than enough power for normal driving situations (at least in BEV form where you're not lugging around the gasoline-powered range extender). The range is enough for my wife's standard commute, although once a month or so she'll have to grab a bit more range at a J1772 or a mythical SAE combo charger.
Which brings me to the "guess-o-meter" range display. So far this has been pretty terrible- when we got the car, the guess-o-meter said we didn't have enough range to make it home even though I had the saleman put the car on a charger while we were negotiating the lease and filling out paperwork. The salesman basically told us to ignore the range displayed by the car and the warning the nav system gave us (after a brief insurance charge at the San Rafael target, we made it home with 19 "guess-o-meter" miles of range left). Since there is only a graphical state-of-charge indicator, I coached my wife on how to convert the graphical bars into EPA range numbers like the Tesla. The charging display also doesn't show the charging power or charging current and only displays another guess at when it will finish charging that proved to be wildly inaccurate in practice. But the most aggravating part of this is that while the charging power is adjustable (Max, reduced and low for L1 and Max or low for L2), the default is set to low and you either have to visit the bmw i3 forums or perhaps read the owner's manual from cover to cover to figure out why the car is charging so slowly. I hope BMW eventually updates the software to fix these issues.
Overall I think BMW did a pretty good job making a fun-to-drive commuter/city car with lots of driver-assist features. Hopefully they can fix some of the most glaring flaws with software updates as Tesla has done. The long term plan is to get a Model 3 when the lease on the i3 is up so I really hope Tesla can start producing the Model 3 in volume by late 2017. And I'm also curious to see how the 53% residual value on the i3 holds up since I'm not sure how attractive an 81-mile range is going to look once affordable 200+ mile EVs are on the market. But in our case, it works as a second car. And I get the Model S every day now since the i3 is better suited to my wife's commute
The styling is certainly a bit out there and I vetoed several of the color combinations since they simply hurt my eyeballs too much (especially the Capparis white and black- my wife refers to those as "skunks"). The interior on the "Giga world" trim level is also pretty unattractive and only comes in one color combination so if you want satellite radio, a built-in garage opener, or the "comfort access" keyless entry, you either have to shield your eyes or go for the top "Tera World" trim level.
My wife commutes to San Francisco about twice a week and she takes the Model S on days when she will be driving during carpool lane hours and she takes her Acura TL if she goes in at other times. The parking spots near her office are really tight- parking the Acura is a pain and parking the Model S is even worse. The i3 fits the bill perfectly because it is tiny, gets carpool lane access in California, the parking sensors and backup camera are fantastic, and the turning radius is great (it can even parallel park itself, although we haven't tried out this feature yet). My wife also says the seats are the most comfortable vehicle seats she's ever sat in, although I only found them slightly better than the seats in the Model S. The regen is perfect for one-pedal driving and it's got all the modern adaptive-cruise control, collision avoidance, speed-sign recognition, etc. that wasn't available when I reserved my model S. While the Tesla is a much better vehicle in almost all respects, BMW really nailed the regen and back-up camera and I hope Tesla copies those features at some point. The i3 is very responsive and while it doesn't have the mind-blowing acceleration of a Model S, it has more than enough power for normal driving situations (at least in BEV form where you're not lugging around the gasoline-powered range extender). The range is enough for my wife's standard commute, although once a month or so she'll have to grab a bit more range at a J1772 or a mythical SAE combo charger.
Which brings me to the "guess-o-meter" range display. So far this has been pretty terrible- when we got the car, the guess-o-meter said we didn't have enough range to make it home even though I had the saleman put the car on a charger while we were negotiating the lease and filling out paperwork. The salesman basically told us to ignore the range displayed by the car and the warning the nav system gave us (after a brief insurance charge at the San Rafael target, we made it home with 19 "guess-o-meter" miles of range left). Since there is only a graphical state-of-charge indicator, I coached my wife on how to convert the graphical bars into EPA range numbers like the Tesla. The charging display also doesn't show the charging power or charging current and only displays another guess at when it will finish charging that proved to be wildly inaccurate in practice. But the most aggravating part of this is that while the charging power is adjustable (Max, reduced and low for L1 and Max or low for L2), the default is set to low and you either have to visit the bmw i3 forums or perhaps read the owner's manual from cover to cover to figure out why the car is charging so slowly. I hope BMW eventually updates the software to fix these issues.
Overall I think BMW did a pretty good job making a fun-to-drive commuter/city car with lots of driver-assist features. Hopefully they can fix some of the most glaring flaws with software updates as Tesla has done. The long term plan is to get a Model 3 when the lease on the i3 is up so I really hope Tesla can start producing the Model 3 in volume by late 2017. And I'm also curious to see how the 53% residual value on the i3 holds up since I'm not sure how attractive an 81-mile range is going to look once affordable 200+ mile EVs are on the market. But in our case, it works as a second car. And I get the Model S every day now since the i3 is better suited to my wife's commute
May I offer an alternative reason for the design goal:
The point of range extender isn't necessarily to extend range in this case, but to extend charging options when range is depleted. Namely, to include the existing gasoline infrastructure in that mix, while electric charging infrastructure is not yet prevalent. Range is thus added by tapping into the existing gas station infrastructure, not necessarily by carrying around lots of fuel - enough range to reach the next gas station, so to speak, if need be.
I'd guess the REx isn't designed to cross a desert, but is meant to be able to charge (also) in areas where the only filling up stations available are the black, icky liquid kind, and thus alleviate range anxiety when driving e.g. in unfamiliar (yet populated) places or areas where EV infrastructure is rare/non-existent.
Two gallons is enough to re-charge your car in a pinch.
This is of course my speculation on what the design goal behind the REx was.
It is good to make that as a design goal now, given the implementation. -
I don't think a small range extender capacity is a mistake or a retroactive decision on BMW's part. It seems to me a safety net of sorts, intended to generate peace of mind and tap into the gasoline infrastructure in a pinch, not intended to turn the i3 into a long-range beast.
I have no vested interest (or any interest) in the i3, I just think this kind of range extender concept fundamentally isn't necessarily about adding independent range, but about adding an emergency charging option instead.
That is also why a REEV type of name for solutions like this may be warranted as a limited-use range extender is quite different in concept from your average plug-in hybrid - more like carrying a small engine generator in the trunk...
Similar threads
