"Breaking Bad" - Daily articles now hitting the news wires

[mrclean90]

I know the car will be physically stopped by an object it crashes into, but what would stop an unintended "power" command? The drive motors would still be trying to turn until the power connection from the batteries were manually severed.

 

[Bill Foster]

I know the car will be physically stopped by an object it crashes into, but what would stop an unintended "power" command? The drive motors would still be trying to turn until the power connection from the batteries were manually severed.

Get that logic out of here!

This needs to be blamed on a manufacturer so the end user doesn’t have to take responsibility for anything

 

[EfficientWatts]

Most sudden acceleration are from creep vehicles which means gasoline car!

I prefer non-creep so that when in doubt, the best policy is to lift up your foot even when you think it's a correct brake pedal and the car would not creep!

First of all I said it would reduce but not eliminate these issues. Your response is like saying that "most sudden acceleration are from cars with seatbelts". People still die even with seatbelts, but they've helped. See how ridiculous that sounds?

I don't get why people feel so defensive about making creep mode on by default. We're not taking away the choice to have it off.

 

[Tam]

...seatbelts...

Both ICE and Tesla have seatbelts.

So we are not talking about seatbelts.

We are talking about what Tesla has that ICE does not!

ICE does not have regen and Tesla does.

So we are not talking about what ICE and Tesla have in common but how Tesla exceeds common ICE creep standard with regen capability.

All ICE have creep as default and have no option for regen.

I am just pointing out the advantage of not imitating ICE creep is if in panic, lifting both feet up would decelerate the car.

I would suggest Tesla to switch to one-pedal driving just like the new Nissan Leaf.

Lifting both feet up would result in a complete halt even while the car is on its way of the middle of the steep hill (up to approximately a 30-percent steepness grade). It's a full stop without touching the brake pedal at all!

There's no need to worry about which pedal will do the job, just lift both of your feet up!

 

[EfficientWatts]

Both ICE and Tesla have seatbelts.

So we are not talking about seatbelts.

We are talking about that Tesla has that ICE does not!

ICE does not have regen and Tesla does.

So we are not talking about what ICE and Tesla have in common but how Tesla exceeds common ICE creep standard with regen capability.

All ICE have creep as default and have no option for regen.

I am just pointing out the advantage of not imitating ICE creep is if in panic, lifting both feet up would decelerate the car.

I would suggest Tesla to switch to one-pedal driving just like the new Nissan Leaf.

Lifting both feet up would result in a complete halt even while the car is on its way of the middle of the steep hill (up to approximately a 30-percent steepness grade). It's a full stop without touching the brake pedal at all!

There's no need to worry about which pedal will do the job, just lift both of your feet up!

you are completely missing my point.

first of all i brought up seatbelts to counter your creep cars = ice = most cars with sudden acceleration. ice cars have seatbelts too, but also have sudden acceleration as well, but you wouldn't blame seatbelts for causing sudden acceleration.

in you really want to be pedantic about it you could say ice cars have gas, and sudden acceleration, therefore gas causes sudden acceleration. see how stupid that sounds?

i wanted creep so one could do low-speed maneuvering without having to press the gas pedal. in that scenario the foot is likely to be over the brake and not over the accelerator.

you bringing in the e-pedal is a completely different scenario and covers a much broader set of circumstances. furthermore by default e-pedal is OFF, which gives users the choice of turning it on. and that's what tesla should do, make creep on be default.

 

[Tam]

I know the car will be physically stopped by an object it crashes into, but what would stop an unintended "power" command? The drive motors would still be trying to turn until the power connection from the batteries were manually severed.

Logically, because it was a slow speed collision to the wall, even if there were no brake application, the car would be stopped by the wall even though the motors and tires might still be slowly spinning.

When the driver gets off the car, the propulsion would be automatically shut off. That would then stop the spinning of the motors and tires.

However, please ask Tesla for what actually happen, not just by logic.

 

[Tam]

...you bringing in the e-pedal is a completely different scenario and covers a much broader set of circumstances. furthermore by default e-pedal is OFF, which gives users the choice of turning it on. and that's what tesla should do, make creep on be default.

We will have to be in disagreement on the subject of creep.

You are pro-creep.

I am anti-creep and I would like to go further to promote one-pedal driving just like Nissan leaf e-Pedal has because creep reminds me of the obsolete ICE.

You believe creep is helpful in reducing Sudden Acceleration claims.

I on the other hand believe one-pedal driving Nissan leaf e-Pedal is the solution.

In summary, we are far apart in creep and anti-creep.

 

[eprosenx]

If you have the creep off, take off all your feet off all the pedals and that alone would drastically decelerate your car due to the unique nature of regen that ICE lacks.



Try with your 2 feet on 2 pedals yourself. The brake always wins no matter how much more you floor the accelerator.

Since you already experienced sudden acceleration, I would suggest driving barefoot. It makes a real difference to feel the difference between the 2 pedals.

The car took off like a rocket when I barely touched the accelerator. I jammed on the brake to stop it. I have no idea if it stopped accelerating when I pulled my foot all the way off the gas or when I hit the brake, but I was not waiting to find out before hitting the brake.

I never said I pressed the brake and the accelerator at the same time. I started the car with my foot on the brake (I ALWAYS put my foot on the brake the instant I get in any car), and then I lightly touched the accelerator. Car took off so I slammed on the brake and it behaved as I would expect.

I have never had unintended acceleration in my 20+ years of driving. I think I have a pretty good feel for the two pedal system with my shoes on.

I also have always owned manual transmission vehicles (with the exception of my truck) and so I have a pretty good feel for vehicles with no "creep" (which I keep turned off on my Model 3).

 

[EfficientWatts]

We will have to be in disagreement on the subject of creep.

You are pro-creep.

I am anti-creep and I would like to go further to promote one-pedal driving just like Nissan leaf e-Pedal has because creep reminds me of the obsolete ICE.

You believe creep is helpful in reducing Sudden Acceleration claims.

I on the other hand believe one-pedal driving Nissan leaf e-Pedal is the solution.

In summary, we are far apart in creep and anti-creep.

it is not. e-pedal would solve the issue if it can help with low speed maneuvering which it does not. you still have to put your foot on the accelerator, which could cause someone to unintentionally smash it. that is not a defect of e-pedal, but the nature of it's design.

and i don't know why you have to be so protective of it. for the last time, just because i am asking for creep to be default does not mean that i'm asking for creep off to be removed.

and e-pedal does not have to be exclusive of creep. both can be settings and then one could choose how they want to drive the car.

and just because an ICE does it doesn't mean it's automatically bad.

 

[Tam]

...just because i am asking for creep to be default does not mean that i'm asking for creep off to be removed...

Agreed.

I have no objections for 2 user selectable options in Tesla:

1) Creep
2) Nissan Leaf e-Pedal

 

[Tam]

...I have never had unintended acceleration in my 20+ years of driving...

I have no doubt of your good driving history.

I've known people who got very good and very long driving history but also got sudden acceleration (all gasoline cars so far) too.

They all insisted that they did not make a mistake on the pedal.

However, lacking the cars' logs or videotaping of their feet, I would default my belief on NTHSA and NASA research that it's "pedal misapplication".

 

[EfficientWatts]

I have no doubt of your good driving history.

I've known people who got very good and very long driving history but also got sudden acceleration (all gasoline cars so far) too.

They all insisted that they did not make a mistake on the pedal.

However, lacking the cars' logs or videotaping of their feet, I would default my belief on NTHSA and NASA research that it's "pedal misapplication".

wow, how many times do i have to say

CREEP WOULD REDUCE NOT ELIMINATE SUCH INCIDENTS

yet you keep going back to incidents happening even on cars that do have creep

i don't dispute that.

your argument is like people still die in cars with airbags, therefore airbags are pointless.

i give up trying to get you to understand my point. you don't have to agree with me but your arguments just don't make sense.

 

[cizUK]

I would suggest driving barefoot

That's illegal in the UK

 

[GolanB]

So I have avoided posting this as I have been waiting for a response from Tesla and I did not want to feed the trolls without hard data (which I still don't have).

A couple of months ago I got into my car (after loading my four year old in the back and with my wife in the passenger seat). I immediately put the car in drive and gently touched the accelerator pedal (as I do every time I get in my car). The car shot forward and spun its tires on the gravel I was parked for (headed straight towards my sister who was getting in the car in front of me). I immediately slammed on the brakes and the car stopped accelerating and stopped without issue. No damage was done, nobody was hurt. The car then operated normally for the 45 minute drive home (and ever since).

This was obviously a jarring event for myself and my family and so I took a picture of the display screen to log the precise time of the issue. Once I got home I immediately called Tesla Roadside Support and asked them to save off the log files. They responded appropriately and were able to pull the log files off. They committed to contact me back after they analyzed the logs.

It is now two months later and during that time I have called them twice to request updates. Both times they have committed to follow through and call me back, but they have never done so. I have been able to confirm that the logs were properly pulled and it has made its way through the escalation process at Tesla and all the way to the development teams. So I assume there is something there, but I have received zero feedback.

Note that I have received a couple of software updates since I had this issue, so it is completely possible that if there was a software issue it has already been addressed. Without contact from Tesla however, I have no way to know.

Some other background data, I am under 40, and I had owned the car for about nine months when this happened, so I don't think inexperience with the vehicle was a factor. I also don't currently have any financial positions in Tesla stock for what that is worth. I did not go shop this to the media or anything...

So I am a sample set of one. Obviously I by myself do not make a statistically representative sample size. Note that I do love the car and I am a huge advocate, but honestly, I do worry that if the car takes off on its own, I have no idea how I would stop it if depressing the brake pedal did not work. There is zero chance the wimpy brakes in the Model 3 could counter the massive torque from the electric motor. As far as I know, there is no physical switch I can hit from the drivers position that disconnects power to the high voltage contactor or something (i.e. like an ignition in an ICE vehicle).

As others have noted, ALL car models have reports of unintended acceleration. Often times this is due to driver mistakes, or just people lying, but the question is how to you determine whether or not there is actually an issue in that noise? Also, when you have produced large numbers of vehicles at the end of the day you can't ever drive cases of mishaps to zero. There is just a defect rate that even with double safeties will sometimes align to create a bad situation. The reality is that there is some level at which it is infrequent enough to accept the risk.

I am curious if there are others with a similar experience.

You may or may not be aware, but in addition to reporting your event to Tesla, the Model 3 manual states clearly you should also report your issue to the NHTSA. See below.

In the mean time, a friend worked with Tesla escalation and finally got a description of what occurred with his vehicle (relating to an incident while autopilot was engaged) approximately one month after opening the case with Tesla. Tesla gave him an initial estimation of 7-21 days before issuing a verbal report (which was read to him by a support employee but not emailed.). He remained in contact with them weekly until the follow up occurred. Follow up is very important, don’t give up.

 

[trm2]

This is not some no name website, It is a TV Station from a major network.

Yeah, because TV Stations from major networks in major markets NEVER do anything wrong.


KTVU's racist reporting on Asiana 214:

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

There's video, so lets analyze the heck out of it.

1. Assuming Creep is on. Here's when the "brakes" would be applied (50% chance she hit the wrong pedal).

2. From the damage to the garage door was likely on the way up when the car "unintendedly accelerated" (Still 50% of hitting the wrong pedal). The rest of the car should have a ton of paint damage (No pictures shown of the whole car, shiatty reporting).

3. Tires spun after she came to a halt hitting her husband's car inside the garage (So the "unintended acceleration" continued after she crashed through the door; my guess is she's still in shock and floored the accelerator pedal some more. Applying brakes would not burn rubber here. People do one of two things in panic, freeze and squeeze or jump back and release all grip).

4. Face touching when telling a story - hiding something, lying (diy research, argue with me here if you wish).

5. Why not show more of the car?? ("Fishy", if the car was actually in AP, this wouldn't have happened = Driver Error).

 

[Msjulie]

I am surprised no one brought this up - how long till we see articles where drivers blame ELDA for steering into something..

 

[Tam]

I am surprised no one brought this up - how long till we see articles where drivers blame ELDA for steering into something..

There have been quite a few posters in TMC complaining about Autosteer misbehaving which resulted in near misses. Also, during summon, the automatic steering steered the car into obstacles which resulted in damages too. News outlets have been reporting the recent Mountain View, CA lawsuit accusing that the autosteer fatally veered the car into the cement divider.

 

[Msjulie]

There have been quite a few posters in TMC complaining about Autosteer misbehaving which resulted in near misses. Also, during summon, the automatic steering steered the car into obstacles which resulted in damages too. News outlets have been reporting the recent Mountain View, CA lawsuit accusing that the autosteer fatally veered the car into the cement divider.

The Mountain View lawsuit, that was AP right?

I've been quite vocal, somehow you missed me , on claiming that not being able to permanently disable ELDA is a bad thing and customer unfriendly.. this feels really related to me..

 

[GolanB]

Yesterday, during Tesla's yearly shareholder meeting, several members brought up the issue of poor reporting by the news media. Elon responded that the issue was a difficult one. He mentioned that very often, Tesla's response to these articles is quoted deeper into the article (sometimes seven paragraphs down) if at all. He felt they were doing the best they could under the circumstances.

Not mentioned was that Tesla had released software tools (free of charge) on their website to download and interpret EDR data, and the hardware available to read this information is considerably cheaper than those available from other manufacturers.

One of the recommendations was that Tesla develop a single document to address the most commonly misreported events (like car fires) that could be used to educate and inform others. He seemed to like the idea of Tesla customers helping to spread this information in the same way they do today with referrals.

Someone else brought up the idea of sitting down with Bloomberg himself as someone who has been a proponent for clean energy and having a fair and frank discussion. Elon responded by saying that recently Bloomberg also contributed to the issue but that may be helpful.

Elon seemed to downplay the idea of investing in advertising and felt that Tesla's current demand is already higher than their ability to build and that spending resources on anything other than getting vehicles out the door might not be a good idea.