"Breaking Bad" - Daily articles now hitting the news wires

[Joshan]

exactly correct, it is impossible to hold the brake and do a burnout. Try it and see what the car tells you...

hint: if you have any pressure on the brake pedal, the accelerator is disabled.

 

[Tam]

...This individual claims she got no response from Tesla, which on the surface sounds strange...

It is not strange for Tesla to be silent for 1 week which in Tesla's time, is not that long.

Historically, Tesla has been very good in PUBLICLY correcting false information from owners very quickly without waiting for even a week or a day.

Since she said she reached out to Tesla but got a silence treatment and we have heard no rebuttals from Tesla that it indeed reached out to her, then we can be sure that Tesla has not.

The story of how her incidence is leaked to the news is believable and not strange at all.

 

[EfficientWatts]

I disagree. Unintended acceleration claims are not even remotely new to Tesla, so creep likely has nothing to do with it. Personally, I believe creep increases the chance, but I don't have any hard evidence either, I think it just comes down to what people are familiar with.

I think the bigger issue is reaction time. With an automatic transmission, the initial delay may give people enough time to realize their mistake, with the Tesla they're already in a wall.

I think we kind of need hard data to prove either way (if creep increases/decreases chance). I only say it may help because that's how cars are today for auto transmissions, so moving from creep -> no creep may cause changes in the foot behavior that could have an impact on pressing with the wrong foot.

Creep or no creep, if people put their foot to the floor on the wrong pedal the car will take off.

 

[Krazaak]

I think we kind of need hard data to prove either way (if creep increases/decreases chance). I only say it may help because that's how cars are today for auto transmissions, so moving from creep -> no creep may cause changes in the foot behavior that could have an impact on pressing with the wrong foot.

Creep or no creep, if people put their foot to the floor on the wrong pedal the car will take off.

I'm not really sure it warrants that much more study. I don't think it's any more prevalent than any other accident and typically lower speed. I think the only reason it evokes such a strong reaction in people, is because they firmly believe they weren't at fault. I mean they obviously didn't press the accelerator because they wanted to drive through their garage or a Starbucks, they're completely convinced they were pressing the brake. If there was any doubt in their mind they were on the wrong pedal, they'd lift off and maybe jump a curb wreck their garage door instead of stomping down. Few people call the news because they ended up in a ditch or t-bone somebody running a red light, because at some level they understand their contribution to the situation, even if they ultimately make excuses for why it really wasn't their fault.

The reason I think creep can make pedal misapplication worse, is because I've forgotten to put my Model X in park on more than one occasion. I'm thinking about what I need at the store or what I have to do next and I take my foot off the brake while I'm opening the door to get out. If my car started to creep forward at that moment I'd be going for the brake in a hurry and risk potentially hitting the wrong pedal.

EDIT: I think Obstacle Aware Acceleration was Tesla's attempt to mitigate this mistake for drivers, but I personally disabled it within a few weeks of it being available. I don't want my car second guessing what I'm doing and I found it very invasive. When I'm pulling out into traffic, I want exactly as much power as I'm requesting, no more, no less.

 

[EfficientWatts]

I'm not really sure it warrants that much more study. I don't think it's any more prevalent than any other accident and typically lower speed. I think the only reason it evokes such a strong reaction in people, is because they firmly believe they weren't at fault. I mean they obviously didn't press the accelerator because they wanted to drive through their garage or a Starbucks, they're completely convinced they were pressing the brake. If there was any doubt in their mind they were on the wrong pedal, they'd lift off and maybe jump a curb wreck their garage door instead of stomping down. Few people call the news because they ended up in a ditch or t-bone somebody running a red light, because at some level they understand their contribution to the situation, even if they ultimately make excuses for why it really wasn't their fault.

The reason I think creep can make pedal misapplication worse, is because I've forgotten to put my Model X in park on more than one occasion. I'm thinking about what I need at the store or what I have to do next and I take my foot off the brake while I'm opening the door to get out. If my car started to creep forward at that moment I'd be going for the brake in a hurry and risk potentially hitting the wrong pedal.

EDIT: I think Obstacle Aware Acceleration was Tesla's attempt to mitigate this mistake for drivers, but I personally disabled it within a few weeks of it being available. I don't want my car second guessing what I'm doing and I found it very invasive. When I'm pulling out into traffic, I want exactly as much power as I'm requesting, no more, no less.

Thank you for being the first one for providing an actual example against creep (and 2nd person that's more reasonable). I do still think that creep does have its benefits though and has saved me from putting the foot on the wrong pedal. That being said cars can still roll away with no creep (think manual car in neutral), though on a flat surface that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Krazaak]

Thank you for being the first one for providing an actual example against creep (and 2nd person that's more reasonable). I do still think that creep does have its benefits though and has saved me from putting the foot on the wrong pedal. That being said cars can still roll away with no creep (think manual car in neutral), though on a flat surface that shouldn't be an issue.

I think it just comes down to a matter of preference. I prefer a manual or sequential gearbox and creep off most closely resembles that. People most comfortable with automatics are likely to prefer creep on. I don't really think one is significantly less safe than the other, I suspect somebody who prefers creep could come up with an equally plausible situation where creep off presents an increased risk.

The real problem is distracted people behind the wheel of any vehicle, let alone one with nearly instantaneous power response.

 

[Dr. J]

Yeah, because TV Stations from major networks in major markets NEVER do anything wrong.


KTVU's racist reporting on Asiana 214:

The TV station screwed up, but it was a summer intern at NTSB that was the source of the error.

 

[Tam]

That's illegal in the UK

That's what've heard for Canada, USA and now the UK. However, it sounds like a myth:

I have been told that it is illegal to drive a car in bare feet. Is this true? | Notes and Queries | guardian.co.uk

Is it illegal to drive barefoot? Driving without shoes in the UK | RAC Drive

"RAC Verdict
Driving in less than practical shoes – or no shoes at all for that matter – is not illegal, but you have a responsibility as a driver to uphold standards on the road.

If your selection of footwear hampers that, you’re putting yourself at risk."

40% female highheels
39% female flip-flops
24% female barefoot

27% male flip-flops
22% male barefoot

 

[KenC]

The red flag is she's only had it 4 days.There are new features that take time adapting to, like one-foot driving, not to mention the very sensitive throttle if not in "chill mode".

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd think she lifted her foot off the throttle, slowing the car down to 5mph, but then to bring it to a complete stop before hitting the garage door, she needed to apply the brake, and instead she put her foot back down on the throttle. It takes a bit of time to develop the muscle memory to use one-foot driving, and 4 days isn't enough.

I don't think there's anything sinister, most of these people who make a mistake truly believe they did everything correctly.

 

[StellarRat]

The TV station screwed up, but it was a summer intern at NTSB that was the source of the error.

You'd think they'd also have a bit of common sense. Besides, "We pride ourselves on getting it right" Did anyone actually read the names and think to themselves, "Hey, wait a minute..."?

 

[eprosenx]

So I have avoided posting this as I have been waiting for a response from Tesla and I did not want to feed the trolls without hard data (which I still don't have).

A couple of months ago I got into my car (after loading my four year old in the back and with my wife in the passenger seat). I immediately put the car in drive and gently touched the accelerator pedal (as I do every time I get in my car). The car shot forward and spun its tires on the gravel I was parked for (headed straight towards my sister who was getting in the car in front of me). I immediately slammed on the brakes and the car stopped accelerating and stopped without issue. No damage was done, nobody was hurt. The car then operated normally for the 45 minute drive home (and ever since).

This was obviously a jarring event for myself and my family and so I took a picture of the display screen to log the precise time of the issue. Once I got home I immediately called Tesla Roadside Support and asked them to save off the log files. They responded appropriately and were able to pull the log files off. They committed to contact me back after they analyzed the logs.

It is now two months later and during that time I have called them twice to request updates. Both times they have committed to follow through and call me back, but they have never done so. I have been able to confirm that the logs were properly pulled and it has made its way through the escalation process at Tesla and all the way to the development teams. So I assume there is something there, but I have received zero feedback.

Note that I have received a couple of software updates since I had this issue, so it is completely possible that if there was a software issue it has already been addressed. Without contact from Tesla however, I have no way to know.

Some other background data, I am under 40, and I had owned the car for about nine months when this happened, so I don't think inexperience with the vehicle was a factor. I also don't currently have any financial positions in Tesla stock for what that is worth. I did not go shop this to the media or anything...

So I am a sample set of one. Obviously I by myself do not make a statistically representative sample size. Note that I do love the car and I am a huge advocate, but honestly, I do worry that if the car takes off on its own, I have no idea how I would stop it if depressing the brake pedal did not work. There is zero chance the wimpy brakes in the Model 3 could counter the massive torque from the electric motor. As far as I know, there is no physical switch I can hit from the drivers position that disconnects power to the high voltage contactor or something (i.e. like an ignition in an ICE vehicle).

As others have noted, ALL car models have reports of unintended acceleration. Often times this is due to driver mistakes, or just people lying, but the question is how to you determine whether or not there is actually an issue in that noise? Also, when you have produced large numbers of vehicles at the end of the day you can't ever drive cases of mishaps to zero. There is just a defect rate that even with double safeties will sometimes align to create a bad situation. The reality is that there is some level at which it is infrequent enough to accept the risk.

I am curious if there are others with a similar experience.

So posting this comment made me think about this topic again and so today I called Tesla AGAIN to get an update on their analysis. Apparently they did finally finish the analysis and had a readout for me (which they never called me to tell me about). The information was kind of fascinating and I think I have a theory on what happened. They said the car was operating as expected. They said I engaged TACC and it came on at the minimum setting of 18 miles per hour. That is why the car accelerated.

I have a theory as to how this might have happened. When I get in the car, I immediately put my foot on the brake. I then generally immediately attempt to shift the car into drive. The trick is that often I do this too quickly and the car is still "booting up" and so it does not go into drive. I see this on the display and immediately try again to put it into drive. When I am at home, this generally results in a chime and an error that autosteer is unavailable (or something like that). But it does go into drive. So basically, the first stalk press fails to put it into drive, but the second one succeeds in putting it into drive but it ALSO tries to engage autopilot. Never before was that an issue, but I think in this case (perhaps due to where I was location wise) it went ahead and somehow engaged TACC. Then when I touched the gas lightly, TACC tried to accelerate to 18 mph. This would explain the unintended acceleration.

So there is more for me to do here (I need to have a more in depth conversation with someone from Tesla to explain this behavior), but it does shed some light on things.

Basically there is at least one bug here (the second press of the drive lever should NOT both put the car into drive AND try to engage autosteer...), and maybe more than one (how did TACC ever engage while at a dead stop? - maybe that is just how it works so you can engage it in rush hour traffic)? Why does it not do this in my driveway (where I go through these same motions every single day)?

I guess I feel a bit better now, but want to get to the bottom of this. ;-)

 

[Tam]

...how did TACC ever engage while at a dead stop?...

Since the gear stalk is also TACC stalk so mixed functions can be confusing.

Maybe we'll just have to slow down and learn how to deal with the 1 stalk with multi-function situation.

I've been criticizing Tesla for not reaching out to the driver Supriya Gupta in this thread but I do give credit to Tesla for keeping you informed of your incidence.

In your case, it took a few months so I would say Supriya Gupta's patience for 1 week might be just too short.

 

[eprosenx]

Since the gear stalk is also TACC stalk so mixed functions can be confused.

Maybe we'll just have to slow down and learn how to deal with the 1 stalk with multi-function situation.

I've been criticizing Tesla for not reaching out to the driver Supriya Gupta in this thread but I do give credit to Tesla for keeping you informed of your incidence.

In your case, it took a few months so I would say Supriya Gupta's patience for 1 week might just too short.

Yeah, I need to go test now to see if TACC can be engaged at a dead stop. I think it can be since I think I have done it in stop and go traffic?

FWIW, the person I talked to said they just finished this writeup on the 10th, so more than two months after the event...

 

[5_+JqckQttqck]

Yeah, I need to go test now to see if TACC can be engaged at a dead stop. I think it can be since I think I have done it in stop and go traffic?

FWIW, the person I talked to said they just finished this writeup on the 10th, so more than two months after the event...

You can engage TACC and AP from a dead stop as long as the system sees the lines clearly. I do it all the time driving downtown Toronto in bumper to bumper traffic.

 

[Joshan]

You can engage TACC and AP from a dead stop as long as the system sees the lines clearly. I do it all the time driving downtown Toronto in bumper to bumper traffic.

In my experience, you can only activate AP from a dead stop if there is a car in front of you.