California buyers: Is Tesla splitting the value of energy credits with you?

[pbleic]

Wow. Speaking of ad hominem - "troll" is the classic ad hominem. You all are reading something into what I wrote. I did NOT know the answer to the question I asked although I thought it unlikely; I wondered whether Tesla was going to offer discounts in California. Nothing in my post says that they "need" to share it with their customers. However, it wouldn't be unreasonable or unrealistic for a company to do this (see below). I am amazed at how much defensiveness there is in this forum. I have been on forums for a number of decades and have never seen such hostility against anything that doesn't "tow the mark."

I read an interesting article, which btw didn't suggest such a sharing concept. It got me thinking, and I asked a legitimate question. For some reason, this evoked anger and hostility.

It isn't entitlement, folks. It is a question about a business model. I am not from California. I am not asking for a rebate. I am wondering whether they could create one. If they did, they would increase demand in California, creating even more credits. Depending on the shape of the supply and demand curve, they might wind up with more gross profit from the additional units sold then the loss from splitting the credits. This is called "business strategy." Companies have to consider such things when trying to maximize their revenues and profitability.

@zythryn on using this in polite company; perhaps you do it, but you should pay attention to the reaction you get. It isn't a really nice way to respond to people. As for your comments - I think the biggest challenge in creating a "rebate" for California customers would be the changing value of them. It isn't really an investment in the same way that real estate, etc. is an investment. I don't know if they account for it "below the line" or "above the line" but it could easily be viewed as a unit cost issue.

 

[qwk]

Tesla is supply constrained. I would bet on a price increase soon, and not a price break.

Your question would have been easily answered by logging into Teslamotors.com. The prices for every country the product is available are posted there.

 

[bonaire]

Tesla is supply constrained. I would bet on a price increase soon, and not a price break.

Your question would have been easily answered by logging into Teslamotors.com. The prices for every country the product is available are posted there.

What input parts are currently making production supply constrained? In the past Musk said the only part that was is the batteries and that is after an annualized production point of about 135,000, give or take a handful-thousand. Didn't the latest contract with Panasonic solve this for the shorter-term (for the next 3-4 years)?

 

[pbleic]

Tesla is supply constrained. I would bet on a price increase soon, and not a price break.

Your question would have been easily answered by logging into Teslamotors.com. The prices for every country the product is available are posted there.

Yes, that is a good argument.
In fact, many, many of the questions asked could be answered by reading various published materials. However, the question wasn't a literal one - it was followed by a question about the concept. To create a discussion of the reasonable arguments for or against.

 

[Krugerrand]

Calling an idea silly is insulting to the creator of the idea try it on your spouse or significant other and you will see.

First of all, you can't be insulted unless you want to be. Yes, the choice IS yours. Let's just take Elon Musk as an example. His ideas have been called far worse than silly and look what he did with that. There have even been times when he agreed with 'such and such idea/action' being silly. He's someone who welcomes negative criticism because sometimes it's just the plain truth and can be used as a catalyst to get better, be better or do better.

I've been married over 20 years. There's been plenty of times where we've asked what the other has been smoking. We're never hurt by honesty from each other, and frankly if you can't just say what needs to be said in a marriage, then perhaps you shouldn't be married.

The veil of the forum allows people to do something they would (or at least should) never do in person.

What you meant to say, since you're clearly concerned about what others think and feel, is that the anonymity of the forum allows SOME people to behave in a way they wouldn't otherwise face to face. I'm not one of those, though. :wink: There are several here who use their real names and still more that have met each other in person at various Tesla related events. This forum is hardly a group of 'anonymous strangers'.

On topic - crazy, silly, ignorant, pick an adjective you're more comfortable with, to think Tesla should be splitting ZEV monies with customers as has already been explained by others.

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The community is friendly only if you are 100% on board with "everything".

Not true and I suspect you know that. (Referencing friendly only if you are 100% on board with 'everything'. The community being friendly is true.)

 

[Zythryn]

Yes, that is a good argument.
In fact, many, many of the questions asked could be answered by reading various published materials. However, the question wasn't a literal one - it was followed by a question about the concept. To create a discussion of the reasonable arguments for or against.

I view the ZEV rebates very much the same as other investments. Perhaps more similar to stock, than real estate.
The rate depends upon how many other manufacturers are buying, and how much they are priced at.
To my knowledge, the price changes quarterly and the demand is constantly changing.
It COULD be done as an after purchase rebate, but is unprecedented.

It also limits, if not eliminates the purpose of the ZEV credits, which is to incentivize manufacturers to make zero emissions vehicles. If they simply passed through the rebates to customers, where is the incentive to them?

I have yet to see a public company, that isn't a co-op, pass along investment income to customers. Why not also explore the idea of companies passing along net profits to customers

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Wow. Speaking of ad hominem - "troll" is the classic ad hominem. You all are reading something into what I wrote. I did NOT know the answer to the question I asked although I thought it unlikely; I wondered whether Tesla was going to offer discounts in California. Nothing in my post says that they "need" to share it with their customers. However, it wouldn't be unreasonable or unrealistic for a company to do this (see below). I am amazed at how much defensiveness there is in this forum. I have been on forums for a number of decades and have never seen such hostility against anything that doesn't "tow the mark."

Avoid The Register's forums. You would not like them.

The "sharing" concept does not make sense for Tesla. It would be silly. In fact, I think it's ironic you ask because, essentially, compliance cars use the sharing concept because the manufacturers are not trying to do what Tesla is trying to do.

@zythryn on using this in polite company; perhaps you do it, but you should pay attention to the reaction you get. It isn't a really nice way to respond to people.

He disagrees with you on this. I disagree with you on this. Whole cultures disagree with you on this. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[pbleic]

@zythryn if you see it as an investment, yes I agree. However, I could see it as a government incentive at the unit level. Above the line. Again, your point that it is variable and after the sale makes my concept moot.

Ps - companies do give discounts to encourage sales. As pointed out, not on a supply constrained market, I agree. I am certain that some day - perhaps not too far away - we will see Tesla having sales and discounts. When there is good competition. Which there will be. This isn't speculation, it is physics.

 

[Krugerrand]

I am certain that some day - perhaps not too far away - we will see Tesla having sales and discounts. When there is good competition. Which there will be. This isn't speculation, it is physics.

IMO, wishful thinking. I don't see Tesla offering sales or discounts in the foreseeable future, since that foreseeable future sees them production constrained. It is having full dealership lots across the world at the end of the year that causes other car manufacturers to have fire sales.

I hope 'real' competition comes. I've yet to see any indication of that happening, though. If it does happen, I still don't see that putting pressure on Tesla to discount their vehicles. Tesla is already THE electric vehicle to have, everyone else is and/or will be second best - and not a close second. I am unable to come up with a scenario based on today's information that sees any other current car manufacturer catching and/or surpassing Tesla in this regard. Indeed, the chasm gets bigger by the day.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't see discounts, but I do see Tesla continually improving the car for the same price. Saturation of the EV market will take multiple decades, even in the most optimistic assumptions.

The only room I see for lower prices is for Gen III platform vehicles (because of the volume Tesla is targeting). The next gen Leaf with double the battery capacity is going to be a big competitor.

 

[Zythryn]

...
Ps - companies do give discounts to encourage sales. As pointed out, not on a supply constrained market, I agree. I am certain that some day - perhaps not too far away - we will see Tesla having sales and discounts. When there is good competition. Which there will be. This isn't speculation, it is physics.

It isn't physics, it is economics.
And yes, I agree that it could happen in the future.
Not anytime soon though.
First you need competition, of which I see none of in the next 3 years.

Also, keep in mind Tesla will be offering a lower priced vehicle in about 3 years.
Until world wide demand softens I see no reason for Tesla to lower prices.

 

[pbleic]

It isn't physics, it is economics.

Yes, of course it is economics. "It's physics" is an expression that is used to say something like "it's an immutable law of nature"

Any good market is going to attract effective competition. There is a natural lag in this market, but it will happen.

 

[brianman]

(a) But it is insulting to tell someone that their idea is silly. Or stupid. Or ignorant. (b) The veil of the forum allows people to do something they would (or at least should) never do in person. (c) It isn't better to be direct in this way; it is better to be polite.

(a) Disagree.
(b) Agree.
(c) Disagree. "That dress [that makes you look hideous] is great, you should buy it." Politeness has value but not when it gets in the way of honesty.

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@zythryn if you see it as an investment, yes I agree. However, I could see it as a government incentive at the unit level. Above the line. Again, your point that it is variable and after the sale makes my concept moot.

Ps - companies do give discounts to encourage sales. As pointed out, not on a supply constrained market, I agree. I am certain that some day - perhaps not too far away - we will see Tesla having sales and discounts. When there is good competition. Which there will be. This isn't speculation, it is physics.

You lost me at "physics". Elaborate?

Edit: Never mind. You clarified in subsequent posts you were using that metaphorically or some-such.

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I hope 'real' competition comes.

Please let there be real competition. I want a backup plan in case Elon loses his mind (or gets abducted by aliens or whatever).

 

[Krugerrand]

Please let there be real competition. I want a backup plan in case Elon loses his mind (or gets abducted by aliens or whatever).

I almost want to say that there's a greater statistical chance of Elon Musk being abducted by Martians than there is of real competition from a current (in business) automaker. Hmm...I guess I did just say it.

 

[Zythryn]

I almost want to say that there's a greater statistical chance of Elon Musk being abducted by Martians than there is of real competition from a current (in business) automaker. Hmm...I guess I did just say it.

I suspect the odds of Elon going to Mars with SpaceX is much greater than Martians coming here to pick him up:scared:

 

[AmpedRealtor]

On Mars, Nissan and GM EVs get the same range as Teslas do here on Earth.

 

[Krugerrand]

I suspect the odds of Elon going to Mars with SpaceX is much greater than Martians coming here to pick him up:scared:

I sure hope so! I don't want Martians coming here and seeing what we've done to the planet; they'll never let us colonize theirs!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

What input parts are currently making production supply constrained? In the past Musk said the only part that was is the batteries and that is after an annualized production point of about 135,000, give or take a handful-thousand. Didn't the latest contract with Panasonic solve this for the shorter-term (for the next 3-4 years)?

IIRC, it's 1.8B cells over 4 years, which means over 60k 85s per year. But this requires Panasonic to add capacity, reopening lines and adding new lines in existing factories. That's expected to be resolved by the end of Q2.

 

[jeff_adams]

I sure hope so! I don't want Martians coming here and seeing what we've done to the planet; they'll never let us colonize theirs!

Does anyone else think it ironic that whomever decides to "terraform" Mars will likely have to dump a bunch of Carbon in the air to create a breathable atmosphere?

 

[pbleic]

"Carbon" meaning CO2? First, not really. An O2/nitrogen atmosphere would be perfectly breathable. Of course it would collect CO2 with every expiration. You would have to add Co2 to have plants though.

And, what would me bad about adding CO2? It is a natural part of the atmosphere. It isn't a pollutant or particulate. It is the stuff that plants live on.