California supercharging prices = $6.74 per "gallon" - me do math wrong?

[Blup85]

I paid $5k last month for my array, and it covers my home in addition to our cars. It is paid off in about 3 years in electricity and petrol savings and then it's generation is free for the rest of its lifetime

Ok, I exaggerated

I did add 1kw to my existing system to offset the Tesla, which cost me about $1k. I'm certainly not complaining, because I absolutly despise paying for energy that I can make myself, increases my property value and basically pays for itself once I throw the switch. But the trusting new owner who gets hit with a huge electric bill might be a little surprized..
I only have 8 mile commute, but use about 20kw a day with the MS ( kids etc). That would put put me in tier 3 every day and more than quadruple my PGE bill.

 

[ucmndd]

I only have 8 mile commute, but use about 20kw a day with the MS ( kids etc). That would put put me in tier 3 every day and more than quadruple my PGE bill.

EV-A rate plan is magic

 

[Evbwcaer]

For many/most Tesla owners environmental concerns were a large part of their choice to buy a Tesla.

Then, when we make the calculations like the ones seen in this thread, we act as though those environmental concerns no longer exist, no longer have a cost associated them not reflected in the retail price of fossil fuels.

If you want a reasonable guess for the actual cost of gallon of gas, double it. If you want a reasonable guess for the cost of electricity.....well that depends on a lot. If it comes from a paid-for solar installation it is near zero, and in some cases the price should be double as well, such as in ND.

 

[Jurnimon]

0.20 = 1KWh = 3.33 miles @300 wh / mile = 6 cents per mile.

My Prius:

50 MPG @ $2.74 gallon = 5.48 cents per mile. Don't get me wrong. I like driving the Tesla more, but if I had to pay california supercharger rates, it would be more costly than driving my prius even after you factor in oil changes.

Our Prius is cheaper to operate than our MX in the winter charging at home off the grid. However, our MX uses less energy and is more efficient than our Prius even when the MX is at its worst.

Having said this, if you would be the only occupant of either car and you solely care about operation cost, yes, the Prius is cheaper to operate. For us, we have solar, carry the family or extended family often and like energy efficiency. Oh and the MX blows the doors off of our Prius and really the two cannot be compared in terms of total cost of ownership. (MX $$$$ vs Prius $)

In the past year, the Prius has been driven 2,500 miles and we have already put 2,500 guilt free miles on our MX in 10 weeks

 

[sorka]

If the reference is to $0.20/kwh at a Supercharger, that's about the U.S. residential rate, same as you plugging into your garage. The OP miscalculated the cost "per gallon equivalent" at a supercharger.

Model S costs about 6 cents/mile to run - less than my 4 cylinder Honda when I buy gas at $2/gallon!

Tesla wouldn't have been on my radar if I had to pay anywhere near 20 cents / kWh. I pay 10 cents / kWh with no tier limit.

 

[sorka]

If the reference is to $0.20/kwh at a Supercharger, that's about the U.S. residential rate, same as you plugging into your garage. The OP miscalculated the cost "per gallon equivalent" at a supercharger.

Model S costs about 6 cents/mile to run - less than my 4 cylinder Honda when I buy gas at $2/gallon!

What, is your Honda only averaging 25 MPG????

 

[SageBrush]

What, is your Honda only averaging 25 MPG????

Less than 33 mpg, based on $2/gallon fuel cost. I'll guess an Accord

 

[McRat]

0.20 = 1KWh = 3.33 miles @300 wh / mile = 6 cents per mile.

My Prius:

50 MPG @ $2.74 gallon = 5.48 cents per mile. Don't get me wrong. I like driving the Tesla more, but if I had to pay california supercharger rates, it would be more costly than driving my prius even after you factor in oil changes.

A Prius isn't exactly a Model S. You'd compare the Model S to a 5 series or similar.

If you want to compare cents per mile of a 50mpg ICE Prius against modern cars, the EREVs do far better than Priuses do but without the poor acceleration and vague handling.

Normal SoCal Edison night power costs assuming 15% wall losses, puts the Prius main competitor at 3.2 cents per mile in the real world.

However, you save even more buying a $13k econobox than any hybrid, PHEV, EREV, or BEV unless there is enough subsidy to compensate.

 

[SageBrush]

EV-A rate plan is magic

No doubt I'm being too cynical, but I tend to parse TOU EV plans as:

"Pay cheap coal rates at night and expensive, NG peak rates during the day!"

If however you have your own PV for the day, they make a lot more sense.

 

[RobStark]

0.20 = 1KWh = 3.33 miles @300 wh / mile = 6 cents per mile.

My Prius:

50 MPG @ $2.74 gallon = 5.48 cents per mile. Don't get me wrong. I like driving the Tesla more, but if I had to pay california supercharger rates, it would be more costly than driving my prius even after you factor in oil changes.

But then you have to drive a wet noodle.

Apples to Apples.

BMW 6 Series, Audi A7/S7, MB CLS.

Prius is like Hyundai Ioniq BEV.

 

[SageBrush]

But then you have to drive a wet noodle.

Says the fellow who lives in gridlock.

 

[RobStark]

Says the fellow who lives in gridlock.

Says the ignorant mountain man.

 

[azred]

If the reference is to $0.20/kwh at a Supercharger, that's about the U.S. residential rate, same as you plugging into your garage. The OP miscalculated the cost "per gallon equivalent" at a supercharger.

Model S costs about 6 cents/mile to run - less than my 4 cylinder Honda when I buy gas at $2/gallon!

Sure am glad I live in the Republic of Arizona rather than the United States of Trump with its average $.20/kWh rates. I pay $.07-.08 depending on Winter vs Summer -- and as long as I avoid higher cost hours of 3-6pm, which is easy. (Much cheaper EV rates are also available, but have more restrictions re time of use that I don't want to deal with.) My hybrid gets about 46-47 mpg and current gasoline prices are slightly over $2/gal. To travel the same distance in my S costs about half as much.

 

[Yinn]

I noticed something tonight. The EPA mpge gallon of gas equivalent is 33.7 kwhr. Tesla's 2017 supercharging price in California is $0.20 / kwhr. That makes a "gallon of gas" $6.74 at Tesla's "pumps." What am I missing here?

You're looking at the wrong final value. If you look at consumption of the fuel unit (electricity vs gas,) combining that energy consumption (mpg), and efficiency then you can determine $/mi, which is the better measure.

I used the calculator on fueleconomy.gov, there's a personalize button on the bottom that I adjusted to $0.20kwh and $6.74/gallon of fuel.

Cost to drive 25miles at @0.20kwh w/ 2017 MS90D (104mpge) = $1.60
Cost to drive 25miles at $6.74 w/ 2017 Toyota Prius (52mpg) = $3.24

IF the Prius was able to double it's efficiency, then yes the equivalent gas rate would be $6.74, but you can't really assume the Tesla will get 104mpg as an ICE either.

The majority of consumption of fuel on an ICE results in lost heat vs energy to propel. They can make it more efficient, but I don't know it will be able to be equivalent to an electric motor in the same car. Since we don't have a gasoline Tesla to compare, I used a Ford Focus EV vs Ford Focus ICE.

2016 Tesla Model S 90D: 104 combined MPGe
2016 Ford Focus EV: 105 combined MPGe
2016 Ford Focus ICE: 32 combined MPG

It's pretty close between the Focus and the Tesla, with both achieving $1.60/25mi @ $0.20/kwh. So we can go on an assumption that an ICE Tesla would achieve MPG numbers in the same general range. To achieve the same $1.60/25mi in the ICE Focus, the fuel cost would have to be $2.05/gallon.

I think this is very comparable to looking at heating fuels when I look at a heating fuel calculator. (Energy.gov has one for heating fuels republished by Purdue.edu) Electricity as a unit has the lowest heat content (btu) out of all fuels. It also has the lowest unit cost ($/kwh) But if you use it on a gas equivalent efficiency level (Furnace or Boiler) it will equal or often times be more expensive than any other fuel unit (fuel oil, diesel, coal, etc.) The advantage of electric is that it's able to surpass those efficiency levels, and in the heating world; it's able to achieve 3 or 4 times the efficiency and achieve a cheaper $/btu.

It's a long post. In summary, if you need a real-life indicator of whether or not Supercharging is expensive; use $2.05/gallon to compare to $0.20/kwh.

 

[ucmndd]

No doubt I'm being too cynical, but I tend to parse TOU EV plans as:

"Pay cheap coal rates at night and expensive, NG peak rates during the day!"

If however you have your own PV for the day, they make a lot more sense.

There is some truth to that, and TOU costs more to charge than most people assume in their calculations. Yes, the electricity you're putting into your car at night is cheap (11 cents/kWh here in CA), but you're also paying substantially more for your daytime use that you wouldn't be if you weren't on a TOU plan, so the real cost of the "cheap" electricity at night is higher.

That said, PV plus the EV-A plan truly can be magic with very quick payback times.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

@MarcusMaximus - true, but my point is about the pricing of the energy equivalent. Tesla has a monopoly on "gas stations" - and their California pricing out-the-gate is more than double the price of actual gas - reducing the financial gain of the efficiency to the end user by 50%. mpge is only a useful metric to the paying end user if electric fuel can obtained at equivalent prices as gasoline.

EV: NG/sun/wind/water/etc -> electricity -> car
ICEV: Gasoline -> car

Your analogy is flawed.

 

[strider]

Financialy, EVs don't really make sense unless you make your own energy (unless your electric rates are sub .10c/kw)
My leveled cost of electricity is .02c/ kw with my solar, but I did it myself.
I think it's kind of a crock the Tesla still boasts that an ev reduces net cost of ownership due to no gas to new buyers. Thats true only if you factor in another 20k for a solar array.

Sure am glad I live in the Republic of Arizona rather than the United States of Trump with its average $.20/kWh rates. I pay $.07-.08 depending on Winter vs Summer -- and as long as I avoid higher cost hours of 3-6pm, which is easy. (Much cheaper EV rates are also available, but have more restrictions re time of use that I don't want to deal with.) My hybrid gets about 46-47 mpg and current gasoline prices are slightly over $2/gal. To travel the same distance in my S costs about half as much.

My cost to operate decreased radically when I moved from CA to OK. In the summer I pay $0.10/kWh 14:00-19:00 M-F, $0.02/kWh all other times. In the winter it's $0.03/kWh for the first 475kWh, $0.02/kWh for the next 775kWh, and $0.01/kWh for all additional. So in the summer we pay ~$1.60 to fill up our Model S, even less in the winter.

I'm planning to add some PV solar at some point but the paybacks will be crazy long. Also we have a ton of trees and I don't think it makes sense environmentally to remove trees just to install PV. Also, they won't let us stay on the current TOU plan and do net metering so lots of calculations to do. We are planning to do solar thermal for our pool.

 

[Jhall118]

@MarcusMaximus - true, but my point is about the pricing of the energy equivalent. Tesla has a monopoly on "gas stations" - and their California pricing out-the-gate is more than double the price of actual gas - reducing the financial gain of the efficiency to the end user by 50%. mpge is only a useful metric to the paying end user if electric fuel can obtained at equivalent prices as gasoline.

This statement is idiotic. Are you saying that we should only care about price per unit of energy, like we are all physicists? Then why do you ignore the energy cost of extracting/transporting/refining gasoline VS electricity?

 

[Jhall118]

Financialy, EVs don't really make sense unless you make your own energy (unless your electric rates are sub .10c/kw)
My leveled cost of electricity is .02c/ kw with my solar, but I did it myself.
I think it's kind of a crock the Tesla still boasts that an ev reduces net cost of ownership due to no gas to new buyers. Thats true only if you factor in another 20k for a solar array.

Financially cars don't make sense. You can buy a nice bicycle and/or walk for much less money. Or take the bus.

 

[sorka]

But then you have to drive a wet noodle.

Apples to Apples.

BMW 6 Series, Audi A7/S7, MB CLS.

Prius is like Hyundai Ioniq BEV.

I'll stick with my unlimited free for life supercharging MS thank you

We're about to take another long trip, this time to Springfield, MO from California. We'll save about $250 vs an MS that has to pay for SC.