CCS Adapter for North America

[Reeler]

In any event, an adapter to any standard is probably possible especially with some tweak of the car's software stack. Tesla has show that it can do Chademo and CCS already.

With the small Model 2 (or whatever Tesla will call the small model) being designed in China, a GB/T connector would be cool. At least the software will be in the car's software stack to make an adapter relatively easy.

 

[MP3Mike]

With the small Model 2 (or whatever Tesla will call the small model) being designed in China, a GB/T connector would be cool. At least the software will be in the car's software stack to make an adapter relatively easy.

Nobody said the vehicle they would be designing in China would be small. Just that it would be out-of-the-box like the Cybertruck.

And anything to be delivered in China will have the GB/T ports, they are required by law. (All Teslas that are delivered now have both.)

 

[CanadianMetal]

Any update or info / rumor on CCS adapter for North America ?

 

[DrDabbles]

Any update or info / rumor on CCS adapter for North America ?

Nope. You'll know when Tesla put one up for sale, because it'll be sold out immediately.

 

[miimura]

Nope. You'll know when Tesla put one up for sale, because it'll be sold out immediately.

You'll also see about three new threads about it on top of the half dozen that already exist speculating about there eventually being one.

 

[Reeler]

Tesla will not release one until forced by regulators to give up their proprietary ambitions. Pressure from German regulators is the only reason why Europe has a CCS adapter.

The CCS options are getting really good now such that I did a cross-country trip in my Chevy Bolt without any issues fast charging all the way. The Tesla advantage is quickly dissipating.

Tesla should have had a CCS adapter for other brand cars to prevent other networks from getting off the ground. They overplayed their hand clinging to a proprietary solution. Tesla is the new betamax of fast charging!

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla is the new betamax of fast charging!

I wish. There were no lines to buy Betamax.

 

[DrDabbles]

Tesla will not release one until forced by regulators to give up their proprietary ambitions.

Elon, for what it's worth, said Tesla would release one "when it made sense" or something like that. Basically, he implied that once CCS Combo 1 was prevalent enough, they'd make one. They made one for ChaDeMo, and even updated the Model 3 to be able to use it, so I'm still hopeful.

Pressure from German regulators is the only reason why Europe has a CCS adapter.

German regulators, maybe, but the EU was clearly going to legislate a common standard at some point. And I'll point out that this was a benefit for Tesla owners in Europe, because they get to choose which charger makes sense for them where they are when they need to charge.

The CCS options are getting really good now such that I did a cross-country trip in my Chevy Bolt without any issues fast charging all the way.

That's very good news, and it'll hopefully only get better as VW, Ford, GM and others bring more EVs to market. More investment in charging benefits everybody.

The Tesla advantage is quickly dissipating.

I think one of the major factors people ignore, for whatever reason, is that if we rely on only Tesla deploying chargers where owners need them, they'll never be able to roll enough of them out. But if we standardize, and we allow access to many charging networks, the odds of having full coverage increase greatly.

The next big issue that's coming is automatic payment between networks, and I think we're again going to see Europe beat North America to the punch. Plug your Tesla in on a Fortum charger, and you're automatically billed without a card or app. Plug your Kona EV into a Tesla charger, and you're automatically billed.

Tesla should have had a CCS adapter for other brand cars to prevent other networks from getting off the ground.

This is actually not allowed by CharIn. They're allowing CCS to Tesla adapter, but not Tesla to CCS in their permissible adapters paper.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think one of the major factors people ignore, for whatever reason, is that if we rely on only Tesla deploying chargers where owners need them, they'll never be able to roll enough of them out. But if we standardize, and we allow access to many charging networks, the odds of having full coverage increase greatly.

It's not really true. It's about having enough sales to support the required number of chargers.
While ideally you want a charger at every exit, a fast charging network doesn't need the same kind of density as for gasoline vehicles, because the chargers don't have to provide all of the miles.

Say each location _for coverage_ costs $250,000 and you want 5,000 of them. That would be $1.25B.
(It sounds like a lot, but for reference GM's _annual_ US advertising spend is over $3B and typical vehicle incentives average in the thousands.)

Say that taking into account additional maintenance and hardware replacement costs you want to spend that money over 10 years with $250 per vehicle.
That would be $1.25B / 10 years / $250 / vehicle = $125M/year / $250/vehicle
= 0.5M vehicles / year.

So, sell 500,000 vehicles per year and you can easily have fully US contiguous state coverage at 40 to 50 mile density. 500,000 vehicles is under 3 percent of the US market.

 

[DrDabbles]

While ideally you want a charger at every exit

Not necessarily.

a fast charging network doesn't need the same kind of density as for gasoline vehicles, because the chargers don't have to provide all of the miles.

The problem with this thinking is that not all long distance driving happens on highways. There are many areas in the US where you can't leave a supercharger, reach a destination, and turn back with enough range to arrive at the supercharger again. This is made worse in the winter where about 30% of long distance range is lost.

The point I'm making is that relying on a single company to solve this entire problem is foolish, because they don't have enough staff to even organize the effort. They also have blind spots, and areas where they don't think there's a strong enough market to invest millions in a charger site. If I'm a customer in Northern NH, my nearest supercharger location might be over the Canadian border, for example.

So, sell 500,000 vehicles per year and you can easily have fully US contiguous state coverage at 40 to 50 mile density. 500,000 vehicles is under 3 percent of the US market.

Your math is way off here. First, you're assuming an even distribution across the US, which is not how our population is distributed, nor how cars travel. Second, your $250k figure is about right for a single stall, not for a site. Finally, to have a supercharger stall every 50 miles in the US means you'd need just over 62,000 of them. And that's just for the contiguous US, none of that Alaska, Hawaii, or US territories stuff. Obviously, that's also only calculating as the crow flies, and not road miles, so you're likely looking at more of them given how rural most of the US actually is.

 

[israndy]

Well, I am happy Tesla is taking as long as they are, I have almost paid off my CHAdeMO adapter in free charging stops, and then it's all just gravy. Perhaps I will get a CCS adapter when/if it comes out, but I won't NEED one as I have this adapter.

I have noticed several places that the CCS cable was broken and so there was no one using the station when I got there because most CHAdeMO cars only take a few minutes to charge to 80%. No Niros or Bolts taking up the charger for hours at a stretch. As often as I have seen this I wonder about the durability of the CCS vs the CHAdeMO. I am also thankful that most of these stations have both plugs, especially in cases where the one goes bad.

 

[DrDabbles]

I have noticed several places that the CCS cable was broken and so there was no one using the station when I got there because most CHAdeMO cars only take a few minutes to charge to 80%. No Niros or Bolts taking up the charger for hours at a stretch. As often as I have seen this I wonder about the durability of the CCS vs the CHAdeMO. I am also thankful that most of these stations have both plugs, especially in cases where the one goes bad.

I've also seen several CCS chargers that have had problems, but none with damaged cables yet. The one nearest to me has recently seen a lot more traffic in the past few months, weirdly. I've seen several Bolts, an i-Pace, and an e-Tron. It's been nice to see so many brands, actually.

 

[PianoAl]

I have almost paid off my CHAdeMO adapter in free charging stops,

Can you tell me about this free CHAdeMO charging. DRIVEtheARC?

Also, can you share the math for the almost-paying-for-itself free charging? I'm considering a CHAdeMO charger as a backup for long trips.

 

[DrDabbles]

Can you tell me about this free CHAdeMO charging. DRIVEtheARC?

Also, can you share the math for the almost-paying-for-itself free charging? I'm considering a CHAdeMO charger as a backup for long trips.

If the ChaDeMo adapter is $450, then you need $450 worth of free charging to "pay it off". Electricity cost varies, so divide $450 by your cost per kWh, and that's how much charging you need.

 

[Daniel in SD]

If the ChaDeMo adapter is $450, then you need $450 worth of free charging to "pay it off". Electricity cost varies, so divide $450 by your cost per kWh, and that's how much charging you need.

Need to take into account the time value of money, expected depreciation of the adapter, and an estimate of future charging prices.
The funny thing is that they're actually an appreciating asset since they're always out of stock. Lowest buy it now price on eBay is $650 right now.

 

[Reeler]

Their value will go way down if Tesla ever releases a CCS adapter for North America. Tesla may also update the Chademo adapter to support charging at higher rates than 50 KWh too. Either will cause serious depreciation.

 

[israndy]

Yeah, that's why I am trying to pay off the adapter before any of that happens.

There are quite a few FREE CHAdeMO chargers around, MOST of them belong to car dealerships, and though I have used those, it's not a great look pulling up and asking to charge a car they don't sell. There are also lots of them provided by cities and by power companies. The biggest issue is that they are UN-RE-LIABLE. Most don't work and since they are a free service there isn't a lot of incentive to get them fixed. DriveTheArc has free charging too. Those chargers even show if they are busy or not. PlugShare helps find them and gives the chargers a rating based on successful charges and allows people to check-in with their most recent successes. That was one of my hobbies when I got my first electric car, helping PlugShare keep their data up-to-date.

I cannot imagine doing long-distance driving if I didn't have a pay-for network that I could fall-back and use. Go Tesla!

 

[Eno Deb]

Can you tell me about this free CHAdeMO charging. DRIVEtheARC?

Also, can you share the math for the almost-paying-for-itself free charging? I'm considering a CHAdeMO charger as a backup for long trips.

Well, if you assume using superchargers would be around $.30/kWh (typical here in CA), to amortize the $450 you'd have to charge 1500 kWh for free, which corresponds to about 4500 miles in a Model 3 (and spending at least 30 hours charging ).

 

[israndy]

Thank goodness for Netflix and YouTube on the center console. I did the math where it worked out to about 25 full charges, I am down to 9 to go. I have access to a Supercharger and a free CHAdeMO where I am. Normally I charge from the sun, but my solar has been pretty anemic during the winter. I thought the adapter would be a good investment, and it's worked out so far. Seems like others have made the same conclusion as there are more and more Teslas showing up at the charger.

 

[wws]

I guess one good thing about having CHAdeMO instead of CCS is the way EA tiers their charging - based on initial kW rate. That is, if you are in the 1-75 kW range, you are charged a lower rate/kWh than if you are in the 125- or 350 kW tier. With the CHAdeMO adapter being limited to 50 kW(*), you'd always be charging in an inexpensive tier. If what I've been reading about the Euro version of the CCS adapter is true, you'd always be billed at the 350 kW tier since it can exceed 125 kW by a small amount.

(*) Actually 125 amps. So some might call a 125 amp charger a 62.5 kW charger since CHAdeMO is spec'ed up to 500 volts.