I see...
I hope Tesla releases soon the Japan and European specs!
@Mark: I have seen ABB chargers both plugs (CHAdeMO and Combo2): ABB kombinerer standardene CHAdeMO og CCS i ny hurtiglader for elbiler
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I see...
I hope Tesla releases soon the Japan and European specs!
@Mark: I have seen ABB chargers both plugs (CHAdeMO and Combo2): ABB kombinerer standardene CHAdeMO og CCS i ny hurtiglader for elbiler
Still waiting.........
I have now wanted to put an order for the new Tesla model s, but after some study and looking into what charging network we have here in Denmark I AM MAKING NO ORDER BEFORE TESLA HAVE COME WITH A CHADEMO AFAPTER !!!!!!!!!!
I have now waited for 1/2 a year, but still no usable news on Chademo adapters...........
I think this is a key factor to have success here in europe........
How long do I have to wait ????????
I have now wanted to put an order for the new Tesla model s, but after some study and looking into what charging network we have here in Denmark I AM MAKING NO ORDER BEFORE TESLA HAVE COME WITH A CHADEMO AFAPTER !!!!!!!!!!
I have now waited for 1/2 a year, but still no usable news on Chademo adapters...........
I think this is a key factor to have success here in europe........
How long do I have to wait ????????
AFAIK Tesla have never committed to CHAdeMO support outside of Japan where cars are due at the end of 2013.
Automakers Straddle the EV Charging Chasm - Forbes
This might be a silly question, I'm no electrical expert, but why can't someone just invent a CHAdeMO -> Tesla adapter? I'm a software engineer so I'm very good at probing software interfaces and making adapters between interfaces on different systems, but why can't the same be done at the electrical/hardware level? Obviously an adapter like the J1772 would be perfect, but if what I read somewhere what that Tesla might have a proprietary interface/protocol securing the connection before charging would take place. That being said, whatever is "upstream" of that protocol Tesla has no control over - so why can't someone take a HPWC and make an adapter that would go from CHAdeMO -> HPWC -> Model S? It might be a bit cumbersome, but my logical thought process tells me that it would definitely work...
CHAdeMO is DC quick-charging a la SuperChargers.
AC specs are well-known for the chargers. What is less-known are the DC specifications, since you're dumping DC directly into the batteries instead of going through a charger that will regulate. You'd need to instrument a SuperCharger-to-MS connection, then watch it in order to make the appropriate adapters.
AC specs are well-known for the chargers. What is less-known are the DC specifications, since you're dumping DC directly into the batteries instead of going through a charger that will regulate. You'd need to instrument a SuperCharger-to-MS connection, then watch it in order to make the appropriate adapters.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The CHAdeMO side has been probed and it's in the process of becoming an open standard so eventually it'll be easy to build the CHAdeMO side. The problem is the Tesla side is still pretty much unknown and if there really is a secure proprietary handshake, it may be impossible for a third party to build such an adapter.
If there's anyone who's likely to build such an adapter, it'll be Ingineer. But again it's contingent on reverse engineering the Model S DC connection first:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...Model-S/page61?p=330359&viewfull=1#post330359
I say it's far more likely that a third party SAE DC to CHAdeMO adapter is built and then you can use the SAE DC adapter in between:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...1772-DC-(Combo)-Connector-Adapter-for-Model-S
Or just waiting for the Japanese launch and having someone there ship it to you.
I wanted to add a word of warning though: the European Model S connector will be different than the US one, so this all of the above may be impossible (without yet another adapter).
If there's anyone who's likely to build such an adapter, it'll be Ingineer. But again it's contingent on reverse engineering the Model S DC connection first:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...Model-S/page61?p=330359&viewfull=1#post330359
I say it's far more likely that a third party SAE DC to CHAdeMO adapter is built and then you can use the SAE DC adapter in between:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...1772-DC-(Combo)-Connector-Adapter-for-Model-S
Or just waiting for the Japanese launch and having someone there ship it to you.
I wanted to add a word of warning though: the European Model S connector will be different than the US one, so this all of the above may be impossible (without yet another adapter).
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That's not entirely accurate. When visiting Oslo, Elon specifically said yes when questioned about CHAdeMO support. While that is not an official Tesla statement, and while GB looked a bit nervous, at least he did say so.
But yes - they really, REALLY, have to start talking on what they'll support, and as important, what they won't support.
sp4rk
Banned
the European Model S connector will be different than the US one, so this all of the above may be impossible.
Where did you read this?
Where did you read this?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I would have to dig up the post about it using Mennekes specifically, but in general from the 3-phase discussion, the Model S is confirmed to support 3-phase in Europe, and Tesla's current socket can't support 3-phase (adapter or not) because it doesn't have enough pins.
Found it here talking about Mennekes for the European Model S (it also mentions a CHAdeMO adapter for Norway):
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/entr...speaks-in-Norway-about-Tesla-s-European-plans
Such an adapter is possible but it would be:
- huge
- heavy
- hugely and heavily expensive
- inefficient
- demand active cooling for more than 5 kW of heat
Problem is Chademo is 500V DC and Model S battery is 375V (nominal?) hence such an adapter would need to be a variable DC/DC converter. There are many ways to implement such a thing but none is elegant, cheap, small, light or simple when currents are in multi kA range and power is over 50kW. Hell, DC/DC converters are expensive even when power is under 1 kW.
The easiest and dumbest way but still most prudent, cheap and light way of doing this would big putting big fat resistor in series to battery terminals. This resistor would need to "eat" about 1/4 of those 500V, leaving ~375V for the battery. Chademo L3 is upto 62kW, so that resistor would burn up to 16 kW of power leaving ~45 kW for the battery. One would need to put that resistor in a nearby stream and hope not to cook the fish. Charging at Chademo L3 sites is mostly free so no need to worry about wasted energy...
More advanced ways of doing it are possible but as said, they are much more expensive, heavy, big and would still emit at least 5kW of heat needing active cooling and would still offer less than 60 kWh (i.e. less than 2/3 of current Tesla's SC) charging power.
Tesla's superchargers are implemented via paralleling outputs of many AC/DC chargers, there is no DC/DC conversion only AC/DC that is almost trivial. And SC still cost ~$250k/site.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Looking over our comments in this thread, seems we are arguing about completely different things.
1) Should Tesla release a CHAdeMO adapter?
My point: they will anyways for Japan so there is no need to discuss this. I'm not arguing it shouldn't exist (or that when it is released in Japan that it shouldn't be released in the US also).
2) When should Tesla release a CHAdeMO adapter?
My point: They should only do so at the same time as the SAE DC adapter if they want to remain a "neutral" party in the competition between the two standards. And this does include concern for the "consumer" as it saves them money in the long run.
3) Should Tesla (and SAE) create a different connector rather than using CHAdeMO?
My point: they have done so already and I have pointed out the reasons why. The reason that they both share is having a single port for AC/DC (there may also be royalty issues too).
My own stake in this: I'm a Gen III waiter and from a "consumer" perspective I would rather have most non-Tesla DC charging infrastructure be dual connector stations than CHAdeMO stations. The SAE DC adapter from everything I have seen so far will be far simpler/compact, easier to use, and less expensive than any CHAdeMO adapter that will be made.
At the same time, I certainly understand why people who have lots of CHAdeMO stations around them already (mainly those in WA, OR, TN) would want CHAdeMO adapter.
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They might have some kind of proprietary layer (to prevent someone from coming up with a SAE DC to Supercharger adapter and using Superchargers for free), and it was never confirmed the supercharger as currently implemented uses the same protocol as SAE DC. It's quite possible that Tesla has their custom protocol on the superchargers, just that the Model S side can support both (maybe with a firmware update if not right now).
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This is not correct. CHAdeMO, like all DC charging protocols, allow the car to tell the charger how much the charging voltage is (which for the Model S is 400V) and the charger would output the correct DC voltage for the battery. CHAdeMO is definitely not outputting 500VDC and depending on the car to do more DC/DC conversion.
The bulky part of a CHAdeMO adapter is the need to simulate the CAN Bus and also the analog handshake (I suspect this part will take up more space/weight than the CAN Bus). The translation box precludes the adapter from being a simple "soda can" adapter (like the current J1772 and what I suspect the SAE DC adapter to be). There's also the fact the CHAdeMO connector is quite bulky/heavy. Think of it as a UMC except with much bulkier cabling and a female adapter end that can handle insertion of a CHAdeMO connector (rather than like the UMC with a male adapter end connecting to a power outlet).
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And Tesla could disable it with the next software update. Would you risk paying >$1000 for something that might suddenly stop working?
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Thanks for helping to get the thread organized, stopcrazypp.
Jkirkebo, I would not take that risk if I thought Tesla didn't want us to use CHAdeMO stations.
But I am confident that they want their customers to charge anywhere they can get power. They are not worried about warranty issues, as it is far less power than a Supercharger, but even if it managed to cause damage through bad wiring or failure to ramp down, the damage would be caused by a third-party accessory so they will not have to cover it. The only reason I can see them turning off the ability to use it is if it is unsafe.
I would absolutely buy one of these. I paid more than that for a third-party charger and adapters for my Roadster.
Jkirkebo, I would not take that risk if I thought Tesla didn't want us to use CHAdeMO stations.
But I am confident that they want their customers to charge anywhere they can get power. They are not worried about warranty issues, as it is far less power than a Supercharger, but even if it managed to cause damage through bad wiring or failure to ramp down, the damage would be caused by a third-party accessory so they will not have to cover it. The only reason I can see them turning off the ability to use it is if it is unsafe.
I would absolutely buy one of these. I paid more than that for a third-party charger and adapters for my Roadster.
You would first have to hack your car so you can listen in on the protocol Tesla uses to communicate with the Supercharger. Then you would have to build an adapter that converted that protocol to the CHAdeMO protocol. And if you had any glitches during testing you'd probably blow out your battery pack. Pretty sure the warranty wouldn't cover that.
TurboFroggy
Member
I think your missing the fundamentals of DC fast charging. How DC fast charging works (Chademo and Tesla Supercharging) is that the car controls the charger's output and the DC is connected directly to the battery pack. There is no conversion of the energy required. The Chademo fast charger as well as the Tesla Fast charger are variable DC and can charge constant current or constant voltage and is completely variable and controllable. The Chademo > Tesla adapter could be small, like the size of a lunchbox and it wouldn't dissipate any heat. The adapter would just be a couple relays and some electronics that handle the handshake and the charge control. There is only one single AC to DC conversion and that is done in the supercharger or the chademo charger itself. DC travels down the cable and directly into the battery pack. The Tesla system has DC and AC on the same wires with a set of DPDT contactors that switch between the battery pack directly and to the onboard chargers. This allows them to use the same connector same pins for both AC and DC charging. The Nissan Leaf has a separate Chademo connector on the car where DC charging goes in and a separate J1772 where 120V/240V AC goes in. The Chademo charger itself is capable of anything from 175 volts up to 500 volts and a maximum of around 60KW, which means around 250 amps at 175 volts or 120 amps at 500 volts. A 48KW-60KW station would be capable of charging a Tesla Model S at around 150 miles per hour.
Ack, that would indeed be the best.
Rumors in the Netherlands say they are thinking about "dual chargers".
Ack. We kind say for sure, but I've heard that they at least used SAE DC as a basis.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
It's not "beefed" up... It's allegedly electrically "the same" as Frankenplug. Obviously, there are two less power pins on the Tesla connector compared to the Frankenplug, since Tesla uses the same power pins for both AC and DC. It certainly makes the SAE plug seem more primitive, even though it was released well after the Tesla plug.
The more I think about it, a world wide Mennekes type plug, with three power pins, one pilot and one proximity would be the "ideal" version. In the USA, or areas or single phase AC, it can handle that. Three phase AC, no problem.
DC through two of the three power pins, just like Tesla does with AC single phase.
One plug for all the standards; 500 volts might be too low for voltage, so I'd spec it for 700-1000 volts. 250 amps. 250kW capable. And assuming the Panasonic 18650's can take 3C charge rate, about "zero to near hero" in about 20-30 minutes.
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