CHAdeMO adapter wait frustration

[EVNow]

2) When should Tesla release a CHAdeMO adapter?
My point: They should only do so at the same time as the SAE DC adapter if they want to remain a "neutral" party in the competition between the two standards. And this does include concern for the "consumer" as it saves them money in the long run.

That doesn't make much sense. They should release CHAdeMO now (as there are a number of chargers that can benefit S owners) and release the SAE DC adapter when there are atleast a handful of those chargers around. It makes no sense from customer perspective to wait for SAE DC adapter to be built to release CHAdeMO adapters that can be used now.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's not "beefed" up... It's allegedly electrically "the same" as Frankenplug. Obviously, there are two less power pins on the Tesla connector compared to the Frankenplug, since Tesla uses the same power pins for both AC and DC. It certainly makes the SAE plug seem more primitive, even though it was released well after the Tesla plug.

It's electrically the same (as in exactly the same number of pins used during charging), but at the same time it can use a different protocol (the PLC allows you to do so). The only reason why SAE went with separate DC pins is backwards compatibility with J1772 AC (IEC did the same for Mennekes in Europe).

The more I think about it, a world wide Mennekes type plug, with three power pins, one pilot and one proximity would be the "ideal" version. In the USA, or areas or single phase AC, it can handle that. Three phase AC, no problem.

You actually need 4 power pins (one for neutral). 5 if you count earth/ground (like on Mennekes, although that pin is smaller). So 7 pins in total.
Yes, that would make for the same connector across the ocean, but the reason why North America/Japan went with Yazaki (3 power pins including neutral) is we practically will have very few three phase home and public level 2 stations. So that would add 2 extra pins (and wiring) that will almost never be used. Keep in mind that Tesla made the same decision (5 pins for US, 7 pins for Europe).

I'd spec it for 700-1000 volts. 250 amps. 250kW capable.

Most batteries have a nominal voltage from 300-400V to match with the motors (charging voltage around the same). I don't think we'll see many 700-1000 volt packs. SAE's DC Level 3 charging specifies 200-600VDC, 400A for 240kW of power.
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf

- - - Updated - - -

That doesn't make much sense. They should release CHAdeMO now (as there are a number of chargers that can benefit S owners) and release the SAE DC adapter when there are atleast a handful of those chargers around. It makes no sense from customer perspective to wait for SAE DC adapter to be built to release CHAdeMO adapters that can be used now.

What I'm talking about is the market share effect (which can cause a positive feedback loop). It was discussed in the SAE vs CHAdeMO thread the market share numbers and it's abundantly clear with current Model S volumes, Tesla can have a huge role in shifting (perceived) market share for either side.

Local/state governments will not be looking at details on how many people actually purchased a CHAdeMO adapter (just like how they don't look at how many Leafs/iMIEVs actually have the DC charging option), all they will do is count the number of cars that can have that option (so total number of Leaf/iMIEV/Model S). If the CHAdeMO adapter comes out way earlier than the SAE DC one, the Model S will be counted in the CHAdeMO market share and that pushes areas to install CHAdeMO-only stations. With more CHAdeMO-only stations, more CHAdeMO cars like the Leaf will be sold, then more stations will be CHAdeMO-only and so on.

It won't be that long until the first dual connector stations are out (around end of summer this year), I suspect that's the timetable of the CHAdeMO adapter release too (Model S's Japan launch) rather than Tesla expediting the process (having engineering focusing on making one for the US market first).

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

That's not entirely accurate. When visiting Oslo, Elon specifically said yes when questioned about CHAdeMO support. While that is not an official Tesla statement, and while GB looked a bit nervous, at least he did say so.

As I said "Tesla have never committed to CHAdeMO support outside of Japan"... Elon says a lot of things but not all come to pass.

 

[100thMonkey]

gearing up for a trip to Idaho next week, I took the kids over the pass to check out Chelan/Wenatchee this weekend and do some camping. I have cobbled together just about every known adapter for the S and I figured I was well armed to handle the RV landscape of Eastern WA. unfortunately at the state park there were only a limited number of 14-50 sites available, all taken, the bulk of sites had an odd 30A plug that is different from all the ones Tesla offers on their site. I ended up finding a camp site at another park but with only the same odd 30A plug. the park host had a 120/12A adapter that he lent me, giving me a whopping 2 miles an hour. I got a bit freaked out that we weren't going to make it home even though we had nearly 4 days, so I started asking around. A guy and his daughter come through the camp daily selling ice and random stuff for camping, at retail prices. His wife works at Ace hardware. A few pictures of the plugs I have and the outlet at the camp site and they identified an adapter that is sold at ACE, and brought it to me the next time through the park! Unfortunately the smart charger in the car needs a pilot signal from the adapter to start the charging so it was back to the super slow plug the park host gave me, that apparently provides a pilot signal... and it did start to show 4 mph, presumably once the battery warmed up or something.

I got on the phone with Tesla and tried to sort out a way around the pilot signal issue, but there just plain isn't one. I so wish that there was a way to manually set the amperage to what you know the rating of the line to be, so in such cases, it would be possible to over ride the pilot signal requirement. I then talked through some of my options. they mentioned I could drive to Wenatchee and plug into the J1772 there and I said oh, you mean the one right next to the DC quick charger that is part of the west coast green highway and he said yes. I mentioned how ironic it would be if I had to plug into a 30 amp charging station for hours right next to a 300A charger simply because Tesla doesn't offer a CHAdeMO adapter... he said he understood my frustration, but really, did he? I reminded him that Tesla says on it's web site that the S can "PLUG IN ANYWHERE", which is just not true. I would have taken 30A and been satisfied but being left with 12 was pathetic and had me thinking way to much about the car while I was trying to have family time with the kids. 64 hours of charging later, I had a 95% charge, I was surprised so all ended well, but it's just getting more frustrating as I realize more and more that I tend to go off the main highways on adventures, places Tesla is unlikely to ever put superchargers and having access to all those CHAdeMO Charging station in WA and Oregon would really open things up. ultimately I wanted to go to Republic WA and introduce the kids to fossil hunting, something that just was not possible without a a quick charge in Leavenworth or Wenatchee, or one of the many other CHAdeMO chargers along the west coast green highway that spans out route 2 and up and down 1-5.

I would agree that Tesla has come up with a superior style of charging, but the reality is, we need access to every other option that we will likely come across, particularly here in WA and OR, one of the hottest markets for the S. Not having access to the CHAdeMO chargers here is supremely frustrating!!!!

 

[KenEE]

100M, Couldn't agree with your sentiments more! I'm thinking we should start a petition drive. There are more than 30 CHAdeMO stations in Texas and er... um... ZERO Tesla Super Chargers.

About the ACE adapter - Can you tell more more about it? I assume its a <whatever> to NEMA 14-50? How can the charger in the S know what comes before the 14-50 adapter? (just wondering as there are tons of RV parks in TX - TIA)

 

[Calisun]

There I was watching the CHAdeMO threads thinking I wasn't directly affected, then I checked Plugshare and one of the closes public chargers to my house is a Blink DC QuickCcharge station. Doh!

 

[Dave EV]

the bulk of sites had an odd 30A plug that is different from all the ones Tesla offers on their site.

These odd 30A plugs are called a TT-30 plug and are rated for 120V/30A, so the most you can pull from them in your Tesla is 120V/20A - I don't know of any commercial plug-in vehicle that will pull more than 20A on 120V.

In a situation like this where you only have 120V plugs available, your only hope is to use a Quick220 (or build your own Easy240 if you are electrically handy) and find two non-GFCI 120V outlets on separate legs of a single phase supply.

Then at least you'll have 240V and 12-16A available depending if you're plugged into 15A or 20A 120V outlets. If you are plugged in to TT-30 plugs, you can likely safely pull 24A if your Quick220/Easy240 is built for it.

Always a good idea to start the current draw low in these situations and watch the center console for excessive voltage drop as you ramp up the current.

Of course - CHAdeMO adapter would be even better!

 

[FlasherZ]

These odd 30A plugs are called a TT-30 plug and are rated for 120V/30A, so the most you can pull from them in your Tesla is 120V/16A - I don't know of any commercial plug-in vehicle that will pull more than 16A on 120V.

In a situation like this where you only have 120V plugs available, your only hope is to use a Quick220 (or build your own Easy240 if you are electrically handy) and find two non-GFCI 120V outlets on separate legs of a single phase supply.

Then at least you'll have 240V and 12-16A available depending if you're plugged into 15A or 20A 120V outlets. If you are plugged in to TT-30 plugs, you can likely safely pull 20A if your Quick220/Easy240 is built for it.

Always a good idea to start the current draw low in these situations and watch the center console for excessive voltage drop as you ramp up the current.

Of course - CHAdeMO adapter would be even better!

Even if you can't find a set of receptacles that will permit Quick220/Easy240 *grimace*, using a custom-made adapter cable *grimace* will permit you to draw 20A @ 120V (2.4 kW). The Model S is limited to 20A continuous current at any voltage < 125V by software setting, regardless of pilot current -- if it detects only 120V it will refuse to charge at anything more. Such an adapter is a horrible idea because it attaches 120V L-N to a receptacle intended for 240V L1-L2 and will likely destroy some appliances if used for any other purpose, but I can confirm that it works.

 

[gregincal]

There I was watching the CHAdeMO threads thinking I wasn't directly affected, then I checked Plugshare and one of the closes public chargers to my house is a Blink DC QuickCcharge station. Doh!

But why would you care about a charger that's close to your house? In Washington and Oregon they have them along the freeways, but in California for the most part they aren't any place they allows you to go somewhere, which makes them pretty useless for us Model S owners.

 

[TonyWilliams]

These odd 30A plugs are called a TT-30 plug and are rated for 120V/30A, so the most you can pull from them in your Tesla is 120V/16A - I don't know of any commercial plug-in vehicle that will pull more than 16A on 120V.

Tesla charger will pull up to 20 amps on 120v. I have my 2013 LEAF/Panasonic modified by EVSE Upgrade - Your EV Charging Solution set for 20 amps on 120v, and 25 amps on 200-250 volts.

- - - Updated - - -

Even if you can't find a set of receptacles that will permit Quick220/Easy240 *grimace*, using a custom-made adapter cable *grimace* will permit you to draw 20A @ 120V (2.4 kW). The Model S is limited to 20A continuous current at any voltage < 125V by software setting, regardless of pilot current -- if it detects only 120V it will refuse to charge at anything more. Such an adapter is a horrible idea because it attaches 120V L-N to a receptacle intended for 240V L1-L2 and will likely destroy some appliances if used for any other purpose, but I can confirm that it works.

I don't think you understand the basics of how the "Quick 220" works. It takes one hot line from each 120 volt circuit and combines them in EXACTLY the same way they would be wired for 240 volts in your house or at a campground. The ground is common, and the neutral is unused.

A Quick 220 with access to two TT-30 amp plugs not in phase at an RV park will be able to charge at 80% of 30 amps, or 24 amps at 240 volts. That is 5.7kW pulled "from the wall", or about 15 miles gained per hour charging at a consumption rate of 333 Watthour per mile (3 miles per kWh).

 

[Calisun]

But why would you care about a charger that's close to your house? In Washington and Oregon they have them along the freeways, but in California for the most part they aren't any place they allows you to go somewhere, which makes them pretty useless for us Model S owners.

I can't wire a HPWC in my townhouse so having that close by means I would have access to a quick charger for times when I have back to back long drives and want to get a charge faster than the 240V will allow.

 

[KenEE]

But why would you care about a charger that's close to your house? In Washington and Oregon they have them along the freeways, but in California for the most part they aren't any place they allows you to go somewhere, which makes them pretty useless for us Model S owners.

This argument that quick charging is only useful between cities is just not correct.

Quick Chargers (SC or CHAdeMO) are useful *anywhere*.

There are so many reasons why you would need to quick charge near your beginning point or your end point. Say you get home on a Friday of a family trip 100 miles down from driving to/from work. You want to get underway ASAP so you stop by the CHAdeMO charger near your home.

A Tesla provided SC between cities may get you to your destination, but you may need a CHAdeMO charger to take everyone to dinner. (for example)

The bottom line is you don't always have hours to wait for a charge, and there are many many CHAdeMO chargers that we should have access to.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There I was watching the CHAdeMO threads thinking I wasn't directly affected, then I checked Plugshare and one of the closes public chargers to my house is a Blink DC QuickCcharge station. Doh!

Blink Stations can be converted to SAE DC relatively easily because they already have two connectors (they are developing it, although Ecotality is looking for grants before they actually start swapping connectors).

It seems like they added a couple Blink DC chargers in South San Francisco just recently (the closest one to SF used to be the VW ERL one). Looking at some of the comments of the Hayward one though, reliability is still iffy for Blink chargers (and connectors already broken a couple of times).

- - - Updated - - -

This argument that quick charging is only useful between cities is just not correct.

Quick Chargers (SC or CHAdeMO) are useful *anywhere*.

Still useful, but not necessary to make trips since you always have your home charger nearby (it's just slower). DC chargers installed on highways, on the other hand, are essential to trips (can't make the trip without them). But the DC station in question is probably still essential for the shorter range EVs like the Leaf and iMIEV, even though it happens to be near his house.

It's still an open policy question if it's better to take the "highway" approach for DC charger distribution like WA/OR/Tesla or to take the "cluster" approach. CA currently uses a cluster approach.

 

[100thMonkey]

honestly, the lack of a CHAdeMO adapter is now forcing me to understand a dizzying array of sub par adapter options and coming to an unfortunate conclusion, that if there is no pilot signal, you are out of luck even if you have the right adapters. I really thought Tesla had the adapter thing covered so I hunted around and have purchased every adapter available (minus the Roadster to Tesla), which was not easy since they are pretty much all out of stock on the Tesla site, sadly the two plug in options I was faced with this weekend, as it turns out, require adapters that Tesla doesn't even make! we can add to the wish list the NEMA TT-30P plug and the L6 line, which I found two L6-20's at the same camping area. even 20 amps would have been a big help compared to 12! I had to consider whether running into town and buying supplies would set me back too much... it seemed crazy to have to sit there for 64 hours.

I'll just be straight up, I don't really understand electricity all that well, I have adopted EV's despite my trepidations but this is getting a bit stressful since I can not identify what I will need out there in the wild... I came really close to not having an option that would work at all last weekend, with two kids and a dog in the car, it could have gotten pretty ugly! I passed 5, 300A CHAdeMO chargers on the way and the way back and for lack of an adapter option, I'm stuck in what feels like the no mans land of RV plug pot luck! It did not help my lack of confidence that the one 14-50 to TT-30 jawbone the host had was burnt to a crisp!

next week, it's off to Idaho, we might just have to rent an ICE, which I find quite galling! Maybe Tesla needs to offer a free ICE rental option for long trips like Nissan does with the Leaf.

 

[KenEE]

...
Still useful, but not necessary to make trips since you always have your home charger nearby (it's just slower). .....

Try reading my entire post. Of course what is "necessary"? It's doubtful that any of these trips are "necessary". But if you want to be able to travel to another city *and* have miles to take your friends/family out in your S when you get there, then waiting hours at 110 or even 240 is going to be anticlamactic. A CHAdeMO adapter could save the day!

IMO, what is not necessary is blind support for every decision Tesla makes.

(And technically speaking, if you are in another city your home charger is not nearby)

 

[Babylonfive]

I don't think anyone's said that quick charging is only useful between cities - I think the idea is that implementing quick charging in cities before the inter-city space is covered, is a mistake. And, it is.

IMHO people who argue for quick charging inside cities are really arguing for free stuff. Even if they aren't looking to dominate the superchargers or Chademo chargers, there are people who will, just because it's free. The principle of public resource is that someone will always abuse/use up that resource.

 

[bollar]

I don't think anyone's said that quick charging is only useful between cities - I think the idea is that implementing quick charging in cities before the inter-city space is covered, is a mistake. And, it is.

IMHO people who argue for quick charging inside cities are really arguing for free stuff. Even if they aren't looking to dominate the superchargers or Chademo chargers, there are people who will, just because it's free. The principle of public resource is that someone will always abuse/use up that resource.

Realistically, at this point, the only BEV that's going to be doing intercity travel is a Tesla. Those Leafs that may be crossing a metropolis (like Dallas/Fort Worth) are going to need an in-city charge to get home again. I expect the CHAdeMO sites in DFW and Houston will be heavily used.

For the Tesla, I absolutely agree that between city charging is more important than in-city charging (please let's have announcements about Madisonville, Waco & Schulenberg tomorrow).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Try reading my entire post. Of course what is "necessary"? It's doubtful that any of these trips are "necessary". But if you want to be able to travel to another city *and* have miles to take your friends/family out in your S when you get there, then waiting hours at 110 or even 240 is going to be anticlamactic. A CHAdeMO adapter could save the day!

What I mean is without DC chargers on highways you can forget about making that inter-city trip in the first place! On the other hand, DC chargers within cities are a nice convenience to have, but even without it, you can charge at a J1772. And in that case, at worse it'll only cost you one stop for enough charging to go to local areas, while during the inter-city trip it's conceivable you would need many charging stops that require close to full charge (so J1772 in between, which is rare, is not an acceptable solution).

 

[qwk]

honestly, the lack of a CHAdeMO adapter is now forcing me to understand a dizzying array of sub par adapter options and coming to an unfortunate conclusion, that if there is no pilot signal, you are out of luck even if you have the right adapters. I really thought Tesla had the adapter thing covered so I hunted around and have purchased every adapter available (minus the Roadster to Tesla), which was not easy since they are pretty much all out of stock on the Tesla site, sadly the two plug in options I was faced with this weekend, as it turns out, require adapters that Tesla doesn't even make! we can add to the wish list the NEMA TT-30P plug and the L6 line, which I found two L6-20's at the same camping area. even 20 amps would have been a big help compared to 12! I had to consider whether running into town and buying supplies would set me back too much... it seemed crazy to have to sit there for 64 hours.

I'll just be straight up, I don't really understand electricity all that well, I have adopted EV's despite my trepidations but this is getting a bit stressful since I can not identify what I will need out there in the wild... I came really close to not having an option that would work at all last weekend, with two kids and a dog in the car, it could have gotten pretty ugly! I passed 5, 300A CHAdeMO chargers on the way and the way back and for lack of an adapter option, I'm stuck in what feels like the no mans land of RV plug pot luck! It did not help my lack of confidence that the one 14-50 to TT-30 jawbone the host had was burnt to a crisp!

next week, it's off to Idaho, we might just have to rent an ICE, which I find quite galling! Maybe Tesla needs to offer a free ICE rental option for long trips like Nissan does with the Leaf.

Although there are a ton of tt30 sockets at all RV parks, almost every RV park has 50 amp service somewhere. I just got back from a 1k mile trip, and there was no shortage of nema 14-50 sockets. Calling ahead is a must.

I don't think that you need many adapters. 120V charging is useless on a road trip, and the only other 240 socket I have run into in the wild is a Nema 10-50. Other than a 10-50 adapter(which tesla doesn't sell for some reason), the only other helpful adapter would be a 14-50, so one can charge at relatives homes using their dryer outlet. The problem with that is the short length of the UMC, so a 20 foot or so extension cord is a must, which makes the 14-50 adapter useless.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Realistically, at this point, the only BEV that's going to be doing intercity travel is a Tesla. Those Leafs that may be crossing a metropolis (like Dallas/Fort Worth) are going to need an in-city charge to get home again. I expect the CHAdeMO sites in DFW and Houston will be heavily used.

The Leaf can actually make inter-city trips in WA and OR because the West Coast Green highway has DC chargers spaced every 30-40 miles along I-5. In contrast, CA and TX has stations clustered near major cities (near SJ and LA for CA, DFW and Houston for TX) designed mainly for local usage.