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Still wish Tesla would 'upgrade' the roadsters to the Tesla adapter
Seeing this thread reminds me of my fondest desire and its kind of on-topic to chademo.
I wish Tesla had an option for changing the adapters on roadsters to the model s adapter. Then we could also change all these great 70 amp roadster adapters around the world into model s. I guess the roadster's will never be able to use the superchargers because of lack of some battery hardware which is very sad.
A tiny voice in my head says what if tesla changes the adapter for the gen 3 in 4 years? They'll sell a lot of those then of course and it will become the standard.
If Tesla settles on one now then its more confidence of settling on that in the future.
Seeing this thread reminds me of my fondest desire and its kind of on-topic to chademo.
I wish Tesla had an option for changing the adapters on roadsters to the model s adapter. Then we could also change all these great 70 amp roadster adapters around the world into model s. I guess the roadster's will never be able to use the superchargers because of lack of some battery hardware which is very sad.
A tiny voice in my head says what if tesla changes the adapter for the gen 3 in 4 years? They'll sell a lot of those then of course and it will become the standard.
If Tesla settles on one now then its more confidence of settling on that in the future.
Not sure what you mean by "pulled" - does that mean applied for / granted, or retracted? This is great news if it's the former.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think he means pulled from the website. I've said it all along. The amount of existing CHAdeMO chargers right now is not a huge enough lead that Tesla can't overcome it in the next 1-2 years. Just a have a little patience.
hans
P631
You have range anxiety with 70 miles left in the "tank"? Heck LEAF owners don't get 70 miles with a full battery. Give it some time and you will learn the true range of your battery given your own special geography and driving habits and you won't sweat it until you're under 10 miles and the dotted yellow lines appear on your speedometer.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Even if there were no more CHAdeMO chargers going in, Tesla does not intend to do that. Tesla is only covering major highways and at fair distances; there are many places they never intend to put Superchargers. Being able to use CHAdeMO chargers is not just a temporary solution until more Superchargers get installed.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't want to do a thread hijack, but I think Tesla's strategy for the local chargers will be the SAE DC adapter. Most municipalities are not going full bore into the CHAdeMO because of SAE's decision not to support it (this is esp. true now that SAE DC is finalized and starting to be UL listed). I think most places are waiting for the dual connector stations to come out to the market before investing in a big way. That's probably why Tesla is not in a hurry to come out with the CHAdeMO adapter in the US (but rather would wait for when the Model S launches in Japan, where CHAdeMO is pretty much mandatory).
As for the on-topic portion. The largest CHAdeMO network right now is this West Coast Electric Highway, and Tesla does seem to have a plan to cover the entire route (already covering Southern California, starting on Washington). The other large CHAdeMO areas are Texas (Dallas, Houston) and Arizona (Phoenix) which Tesla is working on covering (should happen this year). The two areas CHAdeMO covers that Tesla doesn't really have plans for yet is Chicago and Tennessee.
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Puyallup Bill
Member
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Stopcrazypp, I agree that's a great plan for CA. But I don't know of any plans for any SAE stations outside of California (if anybody has heard of any, please pipe in). I am in touch with my state DOT and I will indeed push dual-headed units here if they ever decide to add any more stations. But right now DC installations are being driven by Nissan and Tesla, not the state.
Tesla does indeed plan to cover I-5 - and perhaps soon - but there are many places people go in WA and OR that are not on I-5 that already have CHAdeMO stations. It's not just a matter of waiting for Superchargers or SAE stations, because there are no plans to put them there.
I would much rather use Superchargers or simpler SAE adapters if I could. I'm not asking for a CHAdeMO adapter because I'm trying to make things more difficult for Tesla. We need the adapter because CHAdeMO is, and will continue to be, the only DC option to get many places. Not all places, but enough places.
Actually Tesla doesn't even have to build the adapter - they just have to be clear about their intent. If they came out and said that they will NOT sell a CHAdeMO adapter in the US, that would be enough for a third party to jump in and fill the need. Right now, Tesla's silence on the adapter is just keeping everything in limbo (and keeping me continuing to spend dozens of needless hours charging at L2 stations when I'm right next to a CHAdeMO one, and my friends convinced that EVs are hopeless). I'm hoping for it to be mentioned with the Supercharger announcement.
Tesla does indeed plan to cover I-5 - and perhaps soon - but there are many places people go in WA and OR that are not on I-5 that already have CHAdeMO stations. It's not just a matter of waiting for Superchargers or SAE stations, because there are no plans to put them there.
I would much rather use Superchargers or simpler SAE adapters if I could. I'm not asking for a CHAdeMO adapter because I'm trying to make things more difficult for Tesla. We need the adapter because CHAdeMO is, and will continue to be, the only DC option to get many places. Not all places, but enough places.
Actually Tesla doesn't even have to build the adapter - they just have to be clear about their intent. If they came out and said that they will NOT sell a CHAdeMO adapter in the US, that would be enough for a third party to jump in and fill the need. Right now, Tesla's silence on the adapter is just keeping everything in limbo (and keeping me continuing to spend dozens of needless hours charging at L2 stations when I'm right next to a CHAdeMO one, and my friends convinced that EVs are hopeless). I'm hoping for it to be mentioned with the Supercharger announcement.
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Excellent! Glad to hear about the superchargers in WA - long overdue. Centralia makes huge sense - it is halfway between Seattle and Portland. Even with my ICE that can make it all the way on one tank, I stop there for gas almost every time as it is about the right time for a potty and/or coffee break. I think the rationale for Burlington is that it is about 150 miles from Centralia. For a portland to vancouver run, 150 miles between superchargers is a bit far - people will want close to a full charge for that leg. Personally, I'd like to also see one in Moses Lake on I90 making the trip to Spokane a lot faster.
As to not supporting CHAdeMO, that just doesn't make sense to me. An adapter doesn't support the competition, it makes a Tesla better as it can use more fast chargers. From the consumer viewpoint, "use any charger out there" is a definite selling point. Maybe there are serious engineering challenges... Or maybe there is some legal jockeying going on...
As to not supporting CHAdeMO, that just doesn't make sense to me. An adapter doesn't support the competition, it makes a Tesla better as it can use more fast chargers. From the consumer viewpoint, "use any charger out there" is a definite selling point. Maybe there are serious engineering challenges... Or maybe there is some legal jockeying going on...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes, only CA has concrete plans to install SAE DC stations, but here's some examples outside of CA:
The West Coast Electric Highway (from your Washington State DOT) "Consider an equipment spec that rewards extra points for “dual cord sets” that can charge CHAdeMO ports (Nissan, Mitsubishi) and also the forthcoming Combo charger which is the new SAE standard." pg 15.
http://www.georgetownclimate.org/sites/default/files/EV Panel-Buell-final.pdf
The Washington DC area "Because the charging connection standard will impact what charging equipment is appropriate, local governments and fleet owners should consider waiting for the introduction of vehicles equipped with the new standard receptacle before making large investments in DC fast charging infrastructure." pg 69.
http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/pub-documents/oF5dW1c20121016122213.pdf
Florida "Site hosts considering installation of DCFC stations should install EVSE with both CHAdeMo and SAE J1772 connectors so that all fast-charge-capable PEVs will be able to use it." pg 6-62.
http://www.floridagoldcoastcleancities.com/Chapter_6.pdf
Arizona already has their first dual connector station and more will be installed in AZ as part of GOE3.
https://community.azpm.org/p/community-featured/2012/12/13/20440-quick-charge-at-picacho-peak/
Now that the standard is finalized, I think there will be few local/state governments which do not have SAE DC on their minds right now when considering DC chargers.
Tesla has no plans for Tennessee (correction to above about not supporting Chicago). They have announced plans for Texas, Illinois, Florida, and more in the NE and NW. There are rumored plans for Arizona. So there's very few examples of CHAdeMO areas that Tesla won't cover. And Nissan's DC charger plans so far are dealer based (I already discussed previously the downfalls of this), whereas Tesla superchargers (and other charging network chargers) are accessible 24/7 with no need for permission.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...rger-network-in-northwest-tx-fl-and-northeast
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/rumored-supercharger-locations
I'm not opposed to a CHAdeMO adapter (there obviously will eventually be one when the Model S launches in Japan), just trying to explain the thinking that might be going on behind the scenes and why Tesla has so far not made it a high priority.
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I think what Tesla is worried about is not supporting CHAdeMO vs the superchargers, but rather vs the SAE DC connector. Tesla engineers never had a very high opinion about CHAdeMO and Tesla overall have been working with SAE far more than with CHAdeMO. Tesla's socket is also much, much more similar to the SAE connector. I think what they don't want is to give CHAdeMO a huge vehicle head start by having the Model S counted on the "CHAdeMO side" until SAE DC (or rather dual connector stations that support both) gains some legs. At that point, it'll be okay to release a CHAdeMO adapter without skewing the competition between the two.
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TonyWilliams
Active Member
Tesla doesn't have public plans to install more than a hundred or so of the Superchargers in the future. There are already way more CHAdeMO chargers than that today. There won't be an "overcome".
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I guess things are working according to plan for Frankenplug... Go straight to the source of funding and starve CHAdeMO.
Bravo.
Clearly, the best place for Frankenplug forces to push their product is in the places that just "don't know any better", since they have neither EVs or charging infrastructure.
Again, bravo!!!!
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Thanks for the links, though I note that AZ is the only one of those that plans to install anything. Saying SAE compatibility is favored (or might be favored after some future action) is great; but unless any get installed, it doesn't matter. Lots of municipalities want DC stations; but almost nobody is installing them absent federal or automaker dollars. The federal government stopped handing out money for this, and the SAE automakers aren't donating to the cause. My point still stands - we need the CHAdeMO adapter, or we can't get everywhere we want to go (Superchargers in the same state aren't good enough; they need to be on the routes we travel). It sounded to me like you were disagreeing with that, but I guess not.
Just to be clear, I don't hate SAE; I'm fine with their standard and slightly prefer it to CHAdeMO (although I don't like how or why it was made, as Tony notes).
I agree with you that to the extent Tesla is stalling for strategic reasons, it is probably to give SAE a boost to get dual-headed stations in CA, and I even kind of support that end - I agree it will make life slightly easier for Tesla customers in the places where SAE units get installed. That is seriously hurting their customers in other places, though. Perhaps it would be better if they stated that they won't build a CHAdeMO adapter? That should send an even clearer message to bureaucrats considering DC options, while allowing a third party to get cracking on an adapter. But then I guess if they've already built one and will be selling it overseas, it would be silly to not sell it here too...
Just to be clear, I don't hate SAE; I'm fine with their standard and slightly prefer it to CHAdeMO (although I don't like how or why it was made, as Tony notes).
I agree with you that to the extent Tesla is stalling for strategic reasons, it is probably to give SAE a boost to get dual-headed stations in CA, and I even kind of support that end - I agree it will make life slightly easier for Tesla customers in the places where SAE units get installed. That is seriously hurting their customers in other places, though. Perhaps it would be better if they stated that they won't build a CHAdeMO adapter? That should send an even clearer message to bureaucrats considering DC options, while allowing a third party to get cracking on an adapter. But then I guess if they've already built one and will be selling it overseas, it would be silly to not sell it here too...
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OK, so another possible explanation is not a strategic one but rather "stubborn engineering pride", sometimes call NIH syndrome. I've seen this many times in my career (I've managed lots of engineers and projects). Often times engineers will find a thousand reasons not to support a standard they just don't like or a company that they just don't like. The PC world was filled with that. Unfortunately, this battle gets fought at the customer's expense.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's just NIH. I've pointed out before from an automaker perspective, having one socket that can do both AC and DC charging is more attractive than two. If CHAdeMO was a good solution, Tesla would have picked it for the Model S rather than going on their own (SAE DC didn't exist while the Model S was being developed).
And from an adapter perspective, if Tesla builds a CHAdeMO adapter now (which would be relatively expensive both for R&D and end product) there will be a positive feedback loop that encourages places to install more CHAdeMO stations. If instead Tesla waited for dual connector stations, the less expensive SAE DC adapter would become a viable option.
I guess the base question comes down to is if we should support a standard simply because it came out first (2-3 years early). For Tesla and SAE, it's clearly no. A side point is that if Yazaki designed their plug to support both AC and DC from the start (like the AVCON connector it replaced) instead of having two different connectors, we would not have this problem (since back in 2009 SAE would have adopted it already).
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Tesla will install 100 or so supercharger locations. Each location will have about 10 chargers. So probably about 1000 chargers in total. CHAdeMO chargers are counted per charger because most locations only have one charger. And from an S owner's perspective the biggest deal with the CHAdeMO adapter is being able to use chargers along a long distant route. Being able to charge at one when doing a local trip is less big of a deal with level 2 chargers (although nice to have).
There are no "frankenplug forces" pushing for these policies. It's the local/state governments realizing there are two standards and that there will be cars coming out that support either one. They also realize only Nissan and Mitsubishi has supported CHAdeMO (you can include Toyota & Subaru if you want) and there's 7 other automakers supporting SAE DC, so they are going to expect there to be decent share on either side going forward (looking a couple years ahead). It does not make sense to invest only into one standard and leave EVs on one side unable to charge, esp. given the federal government has issued no policy in this regard (the EU on the other hand already said they won't support CHAdeMO).
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dhrivnak
Active Member
Here in Tennessee I am nearly 500 miles from the closest super charger. Yet we have dozens of CHADeMO chargers along the interstate. While CHADeMO is half the power of a supercharger it is 7 times the power of J1772. For those who says an adapter is not needed has never gone on a road trip outside of CA. Try it just once and you will be more than ready to purchase an adapter. I have been there and I know.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Tennessee is one of the areas with lots of CHAdeMO chargers Tesla has no announced plans to build superchargers (the only one from what I can find), so I can understand your desire for a CHAdeMO adapter.
The reason for Tennessee's choice of CHAdeMO though is obviously because of the Nissan factories there!
I don't think long road trips are possible though on CHAdeMO except on the West Coast Highway (looking more closely the Tennessee network is also more spread out using a similar "highway" design). All the other CHAdeMO networks are designed more for local usage (to fit with the shorter range Leaf and iMIEV). They use a "cluster" design centered in a major city (that's also how hydrogen stations are going to be rolled out). The sizable networks in Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Chicago, all use this cluster design.
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except the WCGH? um, that's a huge chunk of the existing Tesla S market and total EV market. Pretty much every day, truck loads of Model S's are being unleashed to customers here that quickly find they are locked out of the only real fast charging network available, the frustration is substantial and mounting. I'd put money on it that WADOT would be happy to work with Tesla to get lock boxes with adapters at key AV DCQC's so S owners wouldn't have to own them necessarily. really, it's a no brainer and it's pretty clear that there is already a much more nuanced QC network here than Tesla ever plans on having for superchargers.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Well, Tesla already has plans to cover then WCGH. They already covered from Lake Tahoe to LA (extending to Las Vegas and rumors to Phoenix next). They obviously are starting on the Pacific Northwest already (in Washington, and probably Oregon after that).
I'm responding specifically to the claim of road trips outside California. The only two routes CHAdeMO covers is WCGH (which is overlapped heavily by Tesla and likely going to be completely covered) and Tennessee (which Tesla has no plans to cover). CHadeMO is not designed for road trips outside of those two networks. I don't think that's significant enough coverage to say it's way ahead of the supercharger network Tesla is planning to implement. It's only slightly ahead. There's still many other routes left that Tesla may cover first (like between Dallas and Houston, LA to Phoenix, and also the Florida area).
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