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Charge to 90% or 80% daily?

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Overcharging isn't an issue for the SR (software lock buffer) but you make an interesting point re: Depth of discharge

It is bigger % dept if you keep at 50% even for short trips. Maybe I'll keep it at 90% and will charge more as much as possible (A plugged in Tesla is a happy Telsa after all)

Depth of discharge is not the situation of "getting to a lower number", but the difference between the two numbers. I'm not sure exactly the situation you are referring to. I suppose if you drain the battery to 50% for daily use, then you charge back to 90% for a trip you have 1 extra cycle. We don't know how each of the various practices relate to each other in value. Common sense says that we are splitting hairs.

Also, the perennial question is how much does this matter.

Its pretty clear that it does not matter beyond the basics. This is just idle curiosity, by all means.

The best thing for the battery would be to put it up on blocks and never drive it, leave it at low state of charge. Then what good is its health...

A lot also depends on whether you intend on keeping the car 10-15 years. Lets say that I never take long trips, for the sake of battery health. Then I never loose range, but I also do not need that range! If, after 10 years, I only have 50% battery left, then range will be restricted.
 
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Hmm, someone was "offended", despite my comment getting liked. Let's try again with more straightforward safe wording.

I agree that it is theoretically better, but the magnitude of that benefit has never been established. I really don’t care if the battery will last only 20 years rather than 30.

:D This is listening to teenagers argue why they should be able to slam the doors hard in their house. "You can't show me exactly how much it damages things, so I shouldn't have to stop doing it."

But slamming the doors is a little bit harder on things over the long term and can cause things to loosen or break a bit sooner, but the main reason is that there isn't a good reason for you TO keep slamming the doors, so just don't do it.


If you were leasing for 24 or 36 months would there be any harm in just always charging to 100%?

Yes there is harm. You would be causing harm to the battery and causing harm to the car and the value of it. Would you be the one to experience the consequences of that harm you are causing? No, you would be making someone else suffer the consequences of your bad actions.
 
Hmm, someone was "offended", despite my comment getting liked. Let's try again with more straightforward safe wording.



:D This is listening to teenagers argue why they should be able to slam the doors hard in their house. "You can't show me exactly how much it damages things, so I shouldn't have to stop doing it."

But slamming the doors is a little bit harder on things over the long term and can cause things to loosen or break a bit sooner, but the main reason is that there isn't a good reason for you TO keep slamming the doors, so just don't do it.




Yes there is harm. You would be causing harm to the battery and causing harm to the car and the value of it. Would you be the one to experience the consequences of that harm you are causing? No, you would be making someone else suffer the consequences of your bad actions.

Thanks for the response. I wish Tesla would just stop the charge at 80% if it hurts the battery life going to 100%. The average consumer including me would have no idea unless they were visiting a forum like this. All I see is range of 322 at 100% charge and think that is good, as I drive about 18k to 20k miles a year and always would want the most miles I can get.
 
Thanks for the response. I wish Tesla would just stop the charge at 80% if it hurts the battery life going to 100%.
They effectively do. There are things that are not massively damaging immediately the first time, but are more of a small level of damage that will build up if you do it a lot. That's more of what this is. So they don't set a hard stop to never go above, but they make it clear what is better for constant practice and what is for once in a while.
The average consumer including me would have no idea unless they were visiting a forum like this.
Not true.

They make this really clear and easy for everyone, without having to find and read a forum. The car has two sections of the charge limit slider, where you get to pick how high it goes.
One is from 50% to 90% and is clearly marked "DAILY".
The other is from 90% to 100%, and is marked "TRIPS".
So they are very clear about what you should do for you constant daily use, and what is for sometimes, as needed use, that you shouldn't do every day.
And to make it even more clear, if the car detects that it gets charged in that TRIPS range a few days in a row, it will throw up a nice clear warning message on the screen that the TRIPS high charging level is for occasional use when you need that extra range, and you should not be using that every single day.
 
Thanks for the response. I wish Tesla would just stop the charge at 80% if it hurts the battery life going to 100%. The average consumer including me would have no idea unless they were visiting a forum like this. All I see is range of 322 at 100% charge and think that is good, as I drive about 18k to 20k miles a year and always would want the most miles I can get.
If you set the charge above 90ish percent you get a message suggesting to move it back to 90% after the charge is completed.
 
They effectively do. There are things that are not massively damaging immediately the first time, but are more of a small level of damage that will build up if you do it a lot. That's more of what this is. So they don't set a hard stop to never go above, but they make it clear what is better for constant practice and what is for once in a while.

Not true.

They make this really clear and easy for everyone, without having to find and read a forum. The car has two sections of the charge limit slider, where you get to pick how high it goes.
One is from 50% to 90% and is clearly marked "DAILY".
The other is from 90% to 100%, and is marked "TRIPS".
So they are very clear about what you should do for you constant daily use, and what is for sometimes, as needed use, that you shouldn't do every day.
And to make it even more clear, if the car detects that it gets charged in that TRIPS range a few days in a row, it will throw up a nice clear warning message on the screen that the TRIPS high charging level is for occasional use when you need that extra range, and you should not be using that every single day.

Still confusing for most consumers, especially coming from gas cars. Consumers fill gas cars up to full and then always expect to get the same mpg as before based on their current driving habits. So, on my BMW 530xi, I always expect to get over 500 miles per tank on every fill up and always do no matter how it is driven or what conditions.

When going to Tesla and it say 322 of range, I would expect the same thing every time. So, if I average 300 or 280 per tank, I would expect to get that and I would also expect to charge to 100 percent to achieve that. I know you charge every day when you get home, but for someone who does mostly freeway driving and longer trips, I would expect to charge to full to get full range on those trips.

I own many battery operated tools, like iPhone, iPad, Milwaukee Lithium M-18 outdoor tools, etc., like most Americans and don’t charge those to 80%, so why does a car need to do that?

I am not trying to argue with you, just state perceptions from someone who has not owned an electric car and who travels a lot. Awful lot of thinking to own one, when a gas car you just fill it up and go. It is still appealing, as they are the future, just trying to weigh everything before owning one, but filling up to 80 percent, which is not full range then is a drawback for a higher mileage driver. I just think it is slightly misleading when a new owner is looking at buying one, as someone like me is looking at the range or mpg.
 
You are perceiving every single thing that is different as a negative just because you don't have experience with it yet.

Still confusing for most consumers, especially coming from gas cars.
It's different because it's not familiar yet. Once you do it, it's the normal and comfortable way, and having to "go to the filling station" and other gasoline car paradigms seem irritating.

Consumers fill gas cars up to full and then always expect to get the same mpg as before based on their current driving habits. So, on my BMW 530xi, I always expect to get over 500 miles per tank on every fill up and always do no matter how it is driven or what conditions.
Sure, and for most of your driving throughout the year, you plug it in your garage, and go in and sleep, and it's always filled to the same amount every morning, and you never have to stop on your way to or from work to "fill it up". It's totally simple. People who have never driven a gas car and are thinking about it like this, seem to look exclusively at road trips, as if that's 100% of their car's usage. That's a small portion.

When going to Tesla and it say 322 of range, I would expect the same thing every time. So, if I average 300 or 280 per tank, I would expect to get that and I would also expect to charge to 100 percent to achieve that.
It's almost the same. You set your charge limit and forget about it. It fills up to the limit every time, and it's the same, just like you say. It doesn't happen to be 100%. It's probably more like 80% or 90%--wherever you pick--but then it just says there, and you don't have to think about it.

I own many battery operated tools, like iPhone, iPad, Milwaukee Lithium M-18 outdoor tools, etc., like most Americans and don’t charge those to 80%, so why does a car need to do that?
Ah, this is actually a really good question, because it seems that there is something really different here. There actually isn't. Lithium ion batteries all have these same characteristics, but it is different business decisions of how the different companies and products decide to handle them to either expose you to damaging the batteries, or try to hide and prevent that.

Filling to completely full and letting them sit there for a long time does damage lithium ion batteries. That's a fact, whether it's iPhone, iPad, battery operated tools, whatever. What would companies choose to do about that?

1. Let you charge to full
2. Not let you charge to full

With option #1, some products will let you charge to full, and it is building up damage in the battery, and in a year or two, they will have degraded capacity and not hold as much energy. Cell phone batteries have generally done it this way. They want you to have the most run time on your phone, and at the same time, by all means every couple of years they want you thinking how annoyed you are that the phone doesn't last as long and the battery doesn't hold as much energy, and, you know, my provider wants me to buy a new phone and upgrade anyway, etc. etc. They have clear incentive to have the batteries get damaged and not last very long. Frequently the same with laptop batteries. And they can do that, because for some people, it will drive the upgrade phone cycle, but for others, the battery is cheap enough, that they may not mind spending $40 or so every couple of years to replace the battery.

With option #2, some companies just artificially tell you what "FULL" and "EMPTY" are, so they are not really 100% and 0%, since that is damaging to the batteries. They just hide the top and bottom end with control software, so the battery is really operating in about the 10% to 80% range all the time, and the consumers are just not aware of that. That kind of thing usually does apply to things like the power tool batteries, since they sit on chargers at full for huge amounts of time, so they need to keep some of that buffer at the top end to not destroy them prematurely.

And when you thought Tesla having the visibility to set a limit less than 100% was an unusual thing? Several laptop brands like Lenovo, Samsung, etc. have a setting called something like "battery lifetime", which sets the maximum charging level at 80%. This is much better for laptops that are going to be sitting on docking stations most of the time, always hooked up to power. By having them sit at 80% most of the time instead of 100%, it greatly extends the lifetime of the batteries.

So these are not new issues, but companies have usually just not wanted to let consumers know about them before. It was easier to not teach about this, remove choices, and just pick a path to go with their products to keep people blissfully unaware. Tesla is just taking one step further, to put a little more knowledge and responsibility into the customers' hands, so they can access the full capacity of the battery instead of having it hidden, but making them aware that it's something to be careful with, so it's a hybrid between choice #1 or #2.

but for someone who does mostly freeway driving and longer trips, I would expect to charge to full to get full range on those trips.
I saved this for last because it is the one that is the most different and takes some adjustment of thinking. I do love road tripping and am always looking for excuses to travel in my Tesla. In 2018, I got to do one of those gigantic cross country road trips I had always dreamed of doing. I did over 5,000 miles in 11 days, going from Idaho to Michigan, and then taking the longer southern route back through Oklahoma, Texas, and New Mexico.

I know that not filling to 100% seems strange, but you just don't want to do that for time efficiency. Batteries don't fill at a constant rate. As they get more full, they have to slow down the charging. With these batteries, it's pretty similar amounts of time filling from 0-80% as it is from 80-100%. But think realistically about traveling. 80% of 300 miles of range is about 240. At 70 mph, that's still about 3 hours at a shot. Granted, I have talked to some of the hardcore iron-butt guys who are dead set on 5 hour segments and are upset about having to stop for more than 7 minutes in between. (That's kind of masochistic and unhealthy, and their wives usually hate that, but anyway...) So for those people, sure, it's just the reality that nothing will ever beat liquid fuel for its energy density and ultra quick filling.

But bodies have needs. And stopping every few hours for a break to walk across the street and use the bathroom and get a coffee or food or something for a 20-30 minute break is not too bad. You just go into it with a bit of expectation that you're going to plug in and then walk into a shop next door and use up 15 minutes or whatever. So sure, this kind of traveling with breaks does take a little bit more time than strictly gas and go with trying to avoid any breaks and eating while driving. So that's up to each person if they are willing to accept that.
 
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The key is simplicity.

I set mine to 90% the day I bought it, and leave it there. If I'm taking a long road trip, I bump up to 100%.

Otherwise, set it and forget it at 90%. Easy to manage, easy to understand, and my wife (who was a skeptic of EVs going in) is more than thrilled with it.

All the debate about battery health between 80% and 90% and drop down to 50% sometimes but more than others etc is just noise. It's not worth the brain cells you'll use thinking about it. It's just academic.

A little over a year in, almost 17k miles, and I'm showing 306 miles when full. Was 309 when I took delivery. (275 @ 90%.) No time wasted trying to outsmart the smart battery controller.


IMG_5647.jpeg IMG_5648.jpeg
 
Still confusing for most consumers, especially coming from gas cars. Consumers fill gas cars up to full and then always expect to get the same mpg as before based on their current driving habits. So, on my BMW 530xi, I always expect to get over 500 miles per tank on every fill up and always do no matter how it is driven or what conditions.

When going to Tesla and it say 322 of range, I would expect the same thing every time. So, if I average 300 or 280 per tank, I would expect to get that and I would also expect to charge to 100 percent to achieve that. I know you charge every day when you get home, but for someone who does mostly freeway driving and longer trips, I would expect to charge to full to get full range on those trips.

I own many battery operated tools, like iPhone, iPad, Milwaukee Lithium M-18 outdoor tools, etc., like most Americans and don’t charge those to 80%, so why does a car need to do that?

I am not trying to argue with you, just state perceptions from someone who has not owned an electric car and who travels a lot. Awful lot of thinking to own one, when a gas car you just fill it up and go. It is still appealing, as they are the future, just trying to weigh everything before owning one, but filling up to 80 percent, which is not full range then is a drawback for a higher mileage driver. I just think it is slightly misleading when a new owner is looking at buying one, as someone like me is looking at the range or mpg.
My other vehicle is a 330xi. It does NOT get the same miles, after a fillup. In winter it gets fewer miles, not as bad as an EV, but fewer, because I have on snow tires, which have higher rolling resistance, and the ground may have snow, which also increases rolling resistance. Also, if I drive more aggressively, I'll get less miles than if I'm just commuting.

The iPhone now charges up to 90%, and will adjust based upon your usage. It will creep up to 100%, in the morning before you take off for work. It's the same idea as Tesla. You charge up to 100% for a trip, and go as soon as possible after topping up.

Why is there a difference? Mfrs estimate usage cycles for a product and optimize for that. An iPhone typically is used for 2 to 3 years before being replaced, and a battery replacement is fairly easy and cheap, so Apple optimizes for max performance and maximum capacity in a day. A Tesla battery is expected to last 8+ yrs, and so their usage pattern is different. They sacrifice some capacity for longevity. Replacing a battery is far more expensive, and to be avoided as much as possible.

Your Milwaukee is closer to an iPhone, but probably even more extreme. Maybe 500 full cycles and that's it. The iPhone is meant to last 1000 full cycles. With care, the next Tesla battery may last 3000 full cycles, ie the million mile battery.

An EV does require retraining your habits. You don't fill up once a week by going to a gas station. You fill up every night when you plug in at home. It'd be better if Tesla said 90% was 100%, then you wouldn't be bothered. And then let you use that extra 10% as a special trip setting.

When thinking about range, it can make your stops less frequent. For those who have huge bladders, that's an advantage, but for most, it's not that important. The key is whether refueling is fast and convenient. For gas, that's a yes on both. For EVs, that's a maybe. Supercharger V3 are very fast, but not ubiquitous. Superchargers, as a whole, are well-distributed for the most part. There are very few places where there are gaps. There can always be more where there are tons of Teslas like in California, but for the most part, Superchargers are convenient, and pretty fast. Especially when you compare it to what other EVs are facing, with spotty networks and slower chargers, and fewer charging posts per station.

For my regular long trip, it's about 330 miles roundtrip. In my 330xi, it takes 3hrs to get where I'm going, and requires 1 stop for coffee and a bladder break. 10 mins. The same on the way back, but I also have to add gas, so 15 to 20mins. In my Model 3, I do the same trip in the same exact amount of time. I stop in the same two places, and plug in to the supercharger, and get my coffee and use the toilet. The same 10 mins will get me enough charge to continue my journey. And when I return, the 15 mins I use for my 330xi, I now use to charge my Model 3, and I make it home. The exact same time for both. The difference is, with the 330xi I fill the tank before I go, and after I get home. That's two extra steps that I don't do in my Model 3.

So, behavior changes with an EV. You create new habits, and forget the old. I don't miss going to gas stations, and standing there shivering in Winter while using my credit card. I don't miss that.
 
I don't miss going to gas stations, and standing there shivering in Winter while using my credit card. I don't miss that.

I just purchased by M3 this week, and this is definitely my favorite item! It is great to plug and fill instead of turning off your engine, selecting if you are using Debit or Credit, entering your zip code, "Do you want a car wash", "Do you want a receipt", select a grade, remove handle and realize you have to stand there because there is no lever lock on the pump.
I would waste a bunch of time at the stupid pump and now I can enjoy an nice video in the nice A/C while I wait for charging to finish. What a liberating experience.
 
Thanks everyone for all the great information in this thread.

I had a question about the link posted by Zoomit (thanks for this!) regarding brick balancing occurring when the brick with the lowest voltage is charged to above 4.0 volts.

From that link, from the service manual:

To mitigate this imbalance, Batman has some bleed resistor that can be placed and removed in parallel of each brick via a FET relay. Batman can put that resistor across the brick with the highest voltage which would slightly discharge that brick and bring it back to the level of the other bricks. Batman closes a FET which puts that resistor across the brick. The HVBMS will order Batman to put that bleed resistor across the brick with the highest voltage when Delta V is > 5mv MinBrickV > 4.0v (~85% SOC) && HVBMS State == STAND BY.​

There is a good chance that I'm misunderstanding this, so I apologize if this is the case. Let's say that my pack is badly out of balance. How would I know how high my charge percentage would need to be to ensure that the brick balancing takes place (in other words to ensure that the brick with the lowest voltage is still > 4.0v)?

Thanks!
 
How would I know how high my charge percentage would need to be to ensure that the brick balancing takes place (in other words to ensure that the brick with the lowest voltage is still > 4.0v)?
Ah, about 85% SOC, per the text.

Also, a minor point of clarification, the BMS doesn’t charge the low brick. The bleed resistor is used to reduce the charge of the highest brick.
 
^^^ ive seen this happen when i SC my car to 100%. this is why it takes so much longer the last 5% or so to full.
the car will say "calculating..." and i sometimes saw the actual pak charge DECREASE - this is because of the bleed resistor doing its thing. then i would se charging and then "calculating..." and so forth.
 
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