PianoAl
Active Member
And WHOA you have an airlock? Are you in a satellite, neighbors with the I.S.S. perchance?
"Open the pod bay doors, Hal!"
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Charging Concerns; Challenging Townhome Situation
- Thread starter Spacep0d
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- challenging Charging evse
"Open the pod bay doors, Hal!"
LOL. 'I heard that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me. I'm afraid that is not something I can allow to happen...'
Now, is this really something that functions as an airlock? Allergy issues, temp control, or just for fun?
Looks like a mud room... common in older houses in very cold places.
PianoAl
Active Member
"All right, Hal, I'll go in through the emergency airlock."
"Without your space helmet, Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult."
It doesn't get cold here, and the house was built in 1996. Not sure why they had that feature. It serves no purpose for us, but it's fun to call it the airlock.
Sorry to get off topic!
"Without your space helmet, Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult."
It doesn't get cold here, and the house was built in 1996. Not sure why they had that feature. It serves no purpose for us, but it's fun to call it the airlock.
Sorry to get off topic!
Yeah it looks like an insulation room or mud room as eevee mentioned. I see those at public restaurants and other businesses in really cold or snowy areas where I used to snowboard. If someone leaves a door open too long at a restaurant it doesn't freeze everyone eating near the door (or undermine heating efforts). Airlock sounds good though.
1. So you should be 100% fine here. You are not thinking correctly about "putting a load" on your 120v outlets, though it is important to know what else (if anything) is shared on the same breaker with your 120v outlet. The voltage does not have an effect, only current, and when you use a larger outlet, you will draw more power, hence negating the benefit. So you can install a dedicated wire if you determine that that is necessary (120v or whatever). The UMC uses the proper current for a full-time load, assuming only that it is wired correctly and that it does not share power with other devices.
There is 0 problem charging 24/7, and you can ask an electrician. The larger wiring is not more-safe if your are taking more power.
2. Your driving needs are so little that it doesn't seem clear why you are wanting the extra power. Maybe better to wait for HOA?
3. Why does the load sharing require something from the HOA? It is inside your panel, it is what you do with your 60A that matters.
4. Regarding the "Quick220" there is no advantage to this over installing an outlet, assuming that you would pay for it. The 15A (3.6 kw) from the two outlets that your are not otherwise using could just as well be put into a 15A 240v outlet (3.6 kw). You're only fooling yourself and the electricians who said you didn't have the power.
--- Results:
-------- a) you go over the 60A and loose power, needing to reset main breaker
-------- b) you don't go over 60A and might as well just installed an outlet
5. What you really need to do is to get yourself a 100A or 200A panel. I think you are required by law to have min 100A, so its not even something your HOA has a right to object to - its just going to be expensive. Don't worry about the 120v while you wait, as you work at home and are fine. Its just going to cost you a lot to get the upgrade.
Howdy!
Thanks for setting my mind at ease with the load issue. I'm no expert so although it 'feels' wrong to leave a car charging for so long, I can see by yours and other posts that's it's fine, especially since it's load-regulated from the charger in the car.
True, my driving needs don't require an L2 setup now, but I remember how much I struggled with a LEAF (151 miles range) to go to L.A. every day. Won't be an issue with 322 miles range and working from home, but I'm still wanting to 'solve' this issue once and for all. I just won't be as motivated to throw money at it since my need has been reduced. I do also want to futureproof for a second EV my girlfriend will invariably want after experiencing the Tesla again. But, I have a few years to think about that too. Mostly, I'm getting the ball rolling now and I do want the option of faster charging, even if I don't usually need it.
The reason I need HOA approval (maybe) for load-sharing is that this would have to go in the electrical closet that supplies the whole building (one of many buildings in this townhome complex). Are you thinking I don't need permission for this? If not, this seems like the way to go, but electricians will still tell me my panel box is 'full' even with the switcher, right?
I've had at least 5-6 electricians come out or see pictures along with provided information, and they all complain about shared circuits and no good way to get power from the 'full' panel.
I would love to upgrade the panel if I could and would be pay for it. I'll check again on this but wouldn't that mean I need additional power to my unit?
Thanks for the advice!
eprosenx
Active Member
The DCC box (if you get the right one that I linked to before) can (and should) go right next to your main panel in your unit. I don't see how that needs to involve the HOA.
If you buy the right DCC box and then get this breaker you can add a 30a 240v circuit in the garage without impacting your load calculations (assuming you can figure out a way to get the wire to the garage):
Eaton BR 2-30 Amp 2 Pole BQC (Common Trip) Quad Circuit Breaker-BQC230230 - The Home Depot
If you can send more pictures of the outside meter base (including shots of the main circuit breaker) and especially any specifications/model numbers/writing on it we might be able to tell you if it would support more. Also similar pictures of higher resolution of your inside panel so we can see if it is actually rated to say 100a (which it likely is).
And the REAL key is to take the panel cover off your panel and take pictures of the wire feeding into it from outside. We need to know what wire gauge this is, what wire type (probably SE), and if it is copper or aluminum. There is a small chance that you could be allowed to just upgrade the breaker on the outside meter base can and get some more capacity.
Also, send more pictures of the area. Is there any chance you could run a conduit direct from the outside meter box to your garage? You might be able to tap your existing feed and send it to a panel in the garage, OR you could put a subpanel on the outside of the unit right by the meter base and use it to feed your inside panel plus a circuit or panel in the garage. Obviously that would require HOA approval, but it might be pretty unobtrusive if painted the right color.
eprosenx
Active Member
I disagree with this. One of the goals of the NEC is to avoid ever needing the breaker to blow. A breaker is a backup safety device. One primary method of keeping fires from happening is the load calculation that keeps you from overloading the wire in the first place.
Breakers can and do fail (especially if you stress them hard and blow them often!). They also are not as accurate as you might hope/think. They are basic thermal/magnetic devices and if you look at testing results, they vary quite a bit.
Thanks for the info, I'll do some more sleuthing and picture-taking and see what I can find. You could be right about the DCC box and I would love it if you were right about this!
Do you have a background in electrical work? You seem to know your stuff!
I think you mean to say that you agree, seeing as you are expanding on what I said.
I am saying, in shorter words, that the quck220 does not increase the load available to him. The outlets that he is using (which would have otherwise drawn little power) are not figured in the load.
As to letting the main breaker trip wasn't advising it.
The L2 won't help you get to LA unless you are going back-to-back days. You start charged and return home empty, but unless you drive more than 20 miles the next day, you are fine. Remember the charge is not in LA and so can't hep you there. Also Leaf did not have superchargers.
I think what your electricians are concerned about is that 60A is barely enough to run your apartment. That equals 8 120v outlets at full load. They probably want more than 60A.
If 60A panel is in your appt then the dcc would also be in your appt. It measure x out of 60A in the wire to your panel and then cuts power at some threshold.
At night you may have a lot of power available, so they must be mistaken about something or restricted by some code requirements.
OP,
I feel your pain. I was in a similar situation and I created this thread back in late 2018:
I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what?
...and here's the end result:
I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what?
Long story short, I went with a DCC. It was pretty much my only option. Here are some random thoughts after owning the car for over a year:
1) I don't know why you need HOA approval to install a DCC. You're not modifying any common property since the DCC goes inside your condo. So long as you don't touch any of the wiring on the side of the building or the main wire coming from the conduit feeding your panel, you don't need to deal with them. I didn't.
2) Since your main panel (and thus likely DCC location) is located in the house and away from your detached garage, it may not matter since you'd have to run a new 240V wire from the DCC to the garage. THIS would require HOA approval - MAYBE. The likely here is that there's an underground conduit running from your interior panel to the detached garage. In theory, it should be possible for an electrician to pull the new wires for the EV charger through the existing conduit. If this is the case - and if it meets code (I don't know if it does) - then the DCC would work for you.
3) Even if you can't pull new wires through the existing conduit that goes from your panel to your garage, it may be a lot easier and/or a lot less headache to run/trench a new wire on this route than it would to trench a new wire outside the garage along the common areas of the community.
4) Since owning the car there have been very few times where I needed the increased speed of 240V charging. Since you work out of the house, 120V charging will probably be sufficient for you. Remember, once you switch to SCE's TOU-Prime rate plan, you can feed the car juice at 120V literally all day long every day except from 4-9pm. That's 18 hours a day, or +76 miles (in theory).
Good luck and feel free to ask me any questions.
I feel your pain. I was in a similar situation and I created this thread back in late 2018:
I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what?
...and here's the end result:
I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what?
Long story short, I went with a DCC. It was pretty much my only option. Here are some random thoughts after owning the car for over a year:
1) I don't know why you need HOA approval to install a DCC. You're not modifying any common property since the DCC goes inside your condo. So long as you don't touch any of the wiring on the side of the building or the main wire coming from the conduit feeding your panel, you don't need to deal with them. I didn't.
2) Since your main panel (and thus likely DCC location) is located in the house and away from your detached garage, it may not matter since you'd have to run a new 240V wire from the DCC to the garage. THIS would require HOA approval - MAYBE. The likely here is that there's an underground conduit running from your interior panel to the detached garage. In theory, it should be possible for an electrician to pull the new wires for the EV charger through the existing conduit. If this is the case - and if it meets code (I don't know if it does) - then the DCC would work for you.
3) Even if you can't pull new wires through the existing conduit that goes from your panel to your garage, it may be a lot easier and/or a lot less headache to run/trench a new wire on this route than it would to trench a new wire outside the garage along the common areas of the community.
4) Since owning the car there have been very few times where I needed the increased speed of 240V charging. Since you work out of the house, 120V charging will probably be sufficient for you. Remember, once you switch to SCE's TOU-Prime rate plan, you can feed the car juice at 120V literally all day long every day except from 4-9pm. That's 18 hours a day, or +76 miles (in theory).
Good luck and feel free to ask me any questions.
eprosenx
Active Member
Thanks for the info, I'll do some more sleuthing and picture-taking and see what I can find. You could be right about the DCC box and I would love it if you were right about this!
Do you have a background in electrical work? You seem to know your stuff!
I am not an electrical professional, but I work in the datacenter industry and so electricity is extremely important to what I do. ;-) I am an Infrastructure Architect so this is right up my alley.
A note on the DCC: There are multiple versions of it. There is one version that would be appropriate to put right by the electrical main outside which would basically go inline with your main feed and tap some power off outside the house to then go to the car. The other version would be for use as I described with a new branch circuit off your panel. (actually the first version could also be installed near your main panel, but that would probably be more difficult than adding the new quad tandem breaker I linked to)
Sorry, I think I mis-interpreted what you were saying. ;-)
Hi Andy,
Thanks so much for your valuable input here. Nice to know I'm not the only one with this issue. I'm gonna adjust my thinking on the DCC-10 since everyone is telling me I don't need HOA approval. This is great news, but my panel being in the lower bathroom (separated by a patio) and neighbor's staircase running through my garage wall makes things about as complicated as it gets. Where would the DCC go if my panel is in the downstairs bathroom? Maybe it goes in the garage? That might be an ideal place for it and there's room in there.
I'll ask some electricians about this option.
You're right, since I work from home then all of this could be moot, but I'm still keen to 'solve' this challenge on principle and also because my girlfriend may want an EV at some point, especially if we stay here a while. Then again if I wait long enough the HOA will eventually have to find a way to get everyone in a state where they can charge at home because demand is not going down at all, it's going up (and it will be exponential).
I'll explore this and also explore new power from the main electrical closet feeding the building to see which option makes more sense. Thanks again. I'm gonna read your thread here soon.
I appreciate your kind offer to answer any questions. I'll keep updating this thread with new developments as I continue on this journey with its many challenges!
Ah, got it. Yeah I'll definitely pursue this with an electrician to see what they think. I'm also going to pursue new power from the main closet if the HOA is amenable (in cooperation with the electric company). I'll pay for it, but this is a problem they're going to have A LOT going forward if things remain as they are with the units whilst EV adoption is growing (and growing exponentially). I don't think the growth (despite low percentages now) is or will be linear. Even if I'm the first to ask the HOA about this, I sure as heck won't be the last. Not in 2020.
srs5694
Active Member
I'm not 100% sure, but this device might create problems similar to those experienced by owners of "smart" EVSEs (like JuiceBox and ChargePoint Home) with scheduled-charging features. (See here and here, among other threads, for some discussions of this issue.) The problem with these EVSEs (or, really, with Teslas that use these EVSEs) is that when the Tesla goes asleep, it doesn't notice when power is restored from the EVSE, and thus won't begin a timed charge. It'll work OK if the power is restored before the car goes to sleep, or if the car wakes up after the power is restored and soon enough to complete the charge, but if the power is cut, the car goes to sleep, and the car does not wake up soon enough, you could find that the car has done little charging. This might not be a big deal if the DCC-10 cuts power for just a few minutes (it takes my Model 3 from 20 minutes to about 2.5 hours to go to sleep), but it could be a problem if the power is cut for an extended period. That said, the problem is on the Tesla side, so it's conceivable that Tesla will eventually release a software fix.
In theory, a "smart" EVSE like a JuiceBox or ChargePoint Home could do this, and this approach would also bypass the problems noted above; but AFAIK, none implement all the relevant bits and pieces. Maybe something like this will become available in the future. If you were really desperate, and qualified to write the code and fit together the sensors and whatnot, perhaps it could be hacked into an OpenEVSE with some work; but there may be significant hurdles even there.
Overall, my impression is that @Spacep0d is best off going with 120v charging for the time being. Yeah, it's sub-optimal, but it'll work and is the least hassle and lowest cost. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," as it were. If 120v charging becomes a problem, then biting the bullet to add a proper 240v option, or even to move to a house with a less-substandard electrical infrastructure, can be done.
We're going through a similar issue with our townhouse (with 60A). The electrician that we're working with recommends a NEMA 6-20 (mentioned in other posts). Expect to charge the M3 at 15miles/hr according to Tesla website. Will need a $35 adapter. For us, the line to run add an outlet in the garage is not bad; will be contained inside the townhouse, so no need to involve the HOA.
The more expensive alternative is to add a separate charging meter (subject to power company and HOA approvals) and a subpanel in the garage. Estimated cost $4-5k.
The more expensive alternative is to add a separate charging meter (subject to power company and HOA approvals) and a subpanel in the garage. Estimated cost $4-5k.
6-20 lets you charge at 16A / 7.2 KW, over 10 hours, that should add about 65KWh to the battery... that should be way more than sufficient for daily use for most people.
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