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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

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It's absolutely a competitor. Some people just want an EV that goes 200+ miles and until the Bolt comes out they could only choose the model S.

Since late 2010, most folk in the US have had the choice between a car that runs in pure EV mode Monday though Friday, yet can go anywhere in North American. Something BEV's cannot do.

We seldom use gasoline in the Volts. But 24/7/365 all weather, you throw the chains in the back, and go anywhere right now. Virtually non-stop if you have 2 or more drivers.

A Model S is a wide, long car with aluminum bodywork. It is powerful, stylish, with state of the art recharging across much of the US.

It is the cream of the crop when it comes to BEV's, with no close competition.

It's like saying a BRZ is a competitor to the Cayman. Sort of. But not really. The price gap and performance gap aims the two cars at different groups of people, even though they are FAR more similar than the Bolt and Model S are.
 
Before we go batty comparing models
on reliability consider the following:

Back when Fremont was Nummi there were identical cars built there that differed only in badge. One was sold as a Chevrolet the other as a Toyota. One was JD Power rated as above average the other below average. Guess which was which. Correct, we all knew the answer before even looking it up.

Just consider that right now GM brands are built on the same assembly lines from the same components but one is rated outstanding and the others rank lower. Buyer expectations, dealer performance, brand positioning all make a difference. Just don't be deceived that they have anything to do with actual quality because they often do not.
 
It is comedy that some folk appear to think a Bolt is a competitor to a Model S.

They are not for the same demographic. Nobody is trading in their P90D for a Bolt.

I think you both have good points, but you appear to disagree because you are discussing slightly different points in time.

bak_phy described me perfectly (in the recent past when the Bolt was not available). I have a P90DL and may trade it in on a Bolt. Given that we have another car for road trips (my wife has a Model S too; in many families the other car will be an ICE or PHEV), I would LOVE to have a smaller, cheaper car like the Bolt for my second car; I love small efficient hatchbacks, and it is very upright so likely easy for our elderly parents to get in to. I just don't know when I'll be able to buy one given that I am not in a ZEV state. So when the 2-year lease on my P90DL is up, a Bolt will get very heavy consideration. But going back to the recent past, the Model S was the only BEV available that could meet my needs at the time I leased my P90DL. That's probably even more true for people that bought an MS 60; I'm not sure why McRat specified a high-end Model S.

That said, I agree with McRat that the whole "competition" thing (in the near future when the Bolt is available) is way overblown as more-differentiated EVs (like the Bolt and Model S) will appeal to different segments as they become available - not having been available before is why bak_phy's point stands. Ignoring the stock traders that only argue their side for direct financial gain, the more general industry concern with which car will "win" comes from long-standing ICE traditions where in most established segments each automaker would try to snag a slightly larger portion of the fixed market from their competitors with an almost-identical car; usually in small amounts with a brand-new model, but occasionally in larger amounts with a conquest vehicle (though usually at the expense of margins). But the EV market, unlike the ICE market, is growing; it is taking share from ICE. Tesla and Bolt, growing over multiple segments, will both "win" and sell every copy they make - at the expense of gas cars rather than each other. Bolt coming out sooner will not ruin Tesla (although some 3 preorders will jump ship), and the Model 3 being flashier and having a Supercharger network will not ruin the Bolt (although it might put some price pressure on it; far too many variables to say for sure yet).
 
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But the Y is going to be a vastly larger car. The Bolt is built on a sub-compact platform and the 3 is built on a mid-sized platform. Because of the EPA rules for car sizes based on passenger volume, the Model 3/Y could be large cars.

People seem to think the Model 3 is going to be a small car. It's 90% the size of the Model S. The Model Y is likely to be around 90% the size of the X.
 
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I can't even imagine a Model S being used for what you'd use a Bolt for. Parking in crowded "compact" parking lots, parking outside your garage each night. Waxing annually, if that. Driving through any style of carwash. Letting kids eat in the car or bring their crayons. Climbing in with muddy boots. Going 55mph down gravel/dirt roads. Following close behind dump trucks, etc.

Again, you're speaking in gross generalizations that are often inaccurate. As far as my S90D is concerned:

Waxing annually -- false, I never waxed my TT or A6 and i don't plan to ever wax my MS;
Driving through any style car wash -- false, I use whatever car wash is handy;
Park outside -- false, I always park outside, even in Wyoming all winter;
Kids eating/coloring inside -- false, my grandkids do that constantly;
55mph on gravel roads -- false, I spend a lot of time in national parks;

Parking in crowded compact parking lots, muddy boots, following dump trucks -- true, but I don't do that with my Leaf either;

And I am not unique. During my travels, I've met many S & X owners who don't meet your expectations.
 
Waxing annually -- false, I never waxed my TT or A6 and i don't plan to ever wax my MS;
Driving through any style car wash -- false, I use whatever car wash is handy;
Park outside -- false, I always park outside, even in Wyoming all winter;
Kids eating/coloring inside -- false, my grandkids do that constantly;
55mph on gravel roads -- false, I spend a lot of time in national parks;
I'd like to see or feel your paint a year from now.
 
I'd like to see or feel your paint a year from now.

It might be in horrible condition. ;)

Only time will tell, but I've always felt that my cars should be used -- not placed into a museum.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” -- Hunter S Thompson
 
LOL.

1) Chevy is not Lexus. Neither is Cadillac for the matter.

2) Tesla QC issues revolve around fit,finish and noise not leave you stranded on the road then weeks in the shop issues.

3) Proof is in the pudding with Tesla's 98% satisfaction rates and would buy again numbers.

1) Don't care about Cadillac or Lexus. We're talking about Tesla and Chevrolet here, specifically Chevrolet EVs. In our family, we have differend brands of ICE cars, but for EV type, we have 2 Volts (2013 and 2017), Spark EV (2015). None of those 3 have been in the shop for anything not required as routine maintenance or software updates. There are many threads here on TMC about owners complaining about having to wait weeks to get a service appointment, then not all the issues were fixed at the same time, then they'd have to wait for weeks more for parts to arrive.

2) Far from JUST fit & finish, and noise. While the issues are not necessarily the type that leave the owner and their family stranded by the road, they affect comfort level and safety. AC not blowing cold in hot weather, ghosting in windshield, especially at night, FWD not seeing when they're supposed to stop opening or closing, auto-presenting door handles getting stuck, poor paint quality, or unpainted body panels, not to mention the V8 update that cause many owners grief.

3) The "would buy again" is because there are currently no competition. Not necessarily about product quality. Just the lesser of 2 evils: somewhat reliable EV, or ICE.

Do you think that the mass market Model 3 can be successful, and the average buyer, (who probably doesn't have multiple vehicles in the household like S & X owners), will be able to tolerate having their cars in the service centers for weeks at a time? The targeted demographics of the Model 3 will want something reliable to take them to work, kids to school, ......
 
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It's worth keeping in mind that there's selection bias at work in what gets posted and it would be a mistake to suppose those postings form a representative sample. Basically, you're seeing the squeaky wheels, because happy people have nothing to post about (they're out driving).

For example, I've had my S for 20 months. In that time, I've had service for one minor warranty issue once (ranger, no waiting), scheduled service once (again no waiting, outstanding service with valet pick-up/drop-off, loaner provided, work completed on time/as promised), and one "recall" inspection (the seat belt thing) which was performed at a service center with again, no waiting (and that was only because I was in a hurry to do it, later Tesla dispatched a ranger to my nearby Supercharger to take care of locals more conveniently). I saw no reason to post about any of that until now -- why would I? It's the norm, "dog bites man" doesn't get reported. On the other hand, a person with a bad experience is liable to post again and again (look no further than my posts about USB Media, still ongoing).

The reported wait times at service centers are concerning, but Tesla has said they are working to expand capacity so it's not like the issue is being ignored.

Bottom line for me is that based on both experience and data, I'd count myself in the 98% who would (and will) buy again. I would do so even if, say, GM, Audi, VW, or Mazda started selling a like-for-like competitor to the Model S tomorrow, based on the sales and service experience I've had with Tesla vs. those other vendors. Tesla could screw up tomorrow and drive me away, but they haven't yet.

As always, YMMV.
 
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It might be in horrible condition. ;)

Only time will tell, but I've always felt that my cars should be used -- not placed into a museum.
I'm OK with that if you don't care. But to me you made it sound like not caring for it by hand washing or waxing will yield similar results as taking it to a car wash. The car was built in California which has stricter paint regulations. They say (I don't know if it's true) that the paint is softer and more likely to scratch.
 
I've got two cars that are 05s, maybe washed a time or two a year if a carwash is open. 160k miles on each. I'll replace with model 3s in a couple of years but I can assure you that my ratty beat cars value isn't much impacted by the paint job. I mean, I do logging roads at 20mph dodging car swallowing pot holes in a Honda Odyssey. It is a freaking car, pretty soon it will simply be an "on call" appliance, in fact, the model 3 might be the last car I have to own. And what a relief.
 
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Waxing annually -- false, I never waxed my TT or A6 and i don't plan to ever wax my MS;
Driving through any style car wash -- false, I use whatever car wash is handy;
Park outside -- false, I always park outside, even in Wyoming all winter;
Kids eating/coloring inside -- false, my grandkids do that constantly;
55mph on gravel roads -- false, I spend a lot of time in national parks;

I'm only one data-point too ... but here it is:

Previous VW Scirocco and Golf, and also Seat Alhambra ICE : yeah, rarely washed, park anywhere, all had door-dings when sold, etc.

Tesla: Wrapped at zero miles, pay for valeting once a month, no eating inside, take the Golf ICE when parking at the station [tight bays], etc. Long time since I had this attitude to a car, they've been "get me from A to B" only ... back in the 80's I had some Lotus Esprits that I did polish and clean so they looked nice ... can't remember bothering since then ... until now :)
 
It might be in horrible condition. ;)

Only time will tell, but I've always felt that my cars should be used -- not placed into a museum.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” -- Hunter S Thompson

The problem with your body is you don't know how long you're going to have it. My father is 96 and regrets not getting his other knee replacement 8 years ago when he had the first one done. The doctors say he's too old now and it was really the only thing wrong with him until he fell and broke his hip a month ago because the bad knee buckled without warning.

With cars and other things, I take kind of a middle road (so to speak). I try to take care of them within reason, but I also use them. When I got my Model S, I retired a 24 year old Buick I bought new. I haven't waxed the Buick in over 10 years and the paint held up well, but it was also in the garage every night.

1) Don't care about Cadillac or Lexus. We're talking about Tesla and Chevrolet here, specifically Chevrolet EVs. In our family, we have differend brands of ICE cars, but for EV type, we have 2 Volts (2013 and 2017), Spark EV (2015). None of those 3 have been in the shop for anything not required as routine maintenance or software updates. There are many threads here on TMC about owners complaining about having to wait weeks to get a service appointment, then not all the issues were fixed at the same time, then they'd have to wait for weeks more for parts to arrive.

2) Far from JUST fit & finish, and noise. While the issues are not necessarily the type that leave the owner and their family stranded by the road, they affect comfort level and safety. AC not blowing cold in hot weather, ghosting in windshield, especially at night, FWD not seeing when they're supposed to stop opening or closing, auto-presenting door handles getting stuck, poor paint quality, or unpainted body panels, not to mention the V8 update that cause many owners grief.

3) The "would buy again" is because there are currently no competition. Not necessarily about product quality. Just the lesser of 2 evils: somewhat reliable EV, or ICE.

Do you think that the mass market Model 3 can be successful, and the average buyer, (who probably doesn't have multiple vehicles in the household like S & X owners), will be able to tolerate having their cars in the service centers for weeks at a time? The targeted demographics of the Model 3 will want something reliable to take them to work, kids to school, ......

One thing you can trust Elon to do is learn from his mistakes. They rethought a lot of the problems with the Roadster and came up with a pretty well laid out car with the Model S, but it was difficult to build and had some reliability issues (mostly solved with cars coming off the line now). Then they spent too much time and over engineered the X so it was even more difficult to build and has it's own host of reliability problems.

When they did the lessons learned from the Model X, they realized Tesla was too heavy on the automotive engineering and too light on the industrial engineering. With the Model 3, they brought the manufacturing engineers in much earlier and everything has been thought through in terms of how to design things to be easy to build, be reliable, and as inexpensive to build as possible.

This is a new approach and should result in a much more reliable car from the start. However, that doesn't mean the 3 won't have some initial problems. All new car designs from even the most reliable car manufacturers have teething problems. Toyota is one of the most reliable cars year in and year out because they change their car designs less radically and on a longer schedule than just about any other car maker. A few years ago Ford went from one of the most reliable brands to one of the least reliable because they changed car designs across their line over a very short period of time and most of their car designs were all having teething problems at the same time.

I expect the initial quality of the Model 3 will be much better than the S or X was when introduced, but it won't be perfect. Tesla is very good at customer support, and they are planning on expanding the service center network to support the 3. The first new ones will probably be in California, and then they will expand in the western US. The need those areas first because that's where the first 3s will be introduced.

Considering all the things that have to work right for a car company to survive and most of the existing car companies out there have around 100 years of experience, Tesla is coming along quite fast. The Model S being produced today is dramatically better than 2 years ago. The recent Xs are better than those built just 6 months ago, though they haven't reached the level of quality of the S yet.

Over the last 10 years or so I've looked at replacing my Buick from time to time, but didn't find anything that was really as good. The Buick was behind the curve on tech (it didn't even have a CD player), but on the big things like comfort on a long road trip, cargo capacity, fuel mileage, and acceleration, newer cars couldn't compete. It's fuel mileage was pretty much the same as a new Ford Taurus and the Taurus is a slug with poorer cargo capacity.

The Model S was the only car I've seen that was actually better in most regards. The seats aren't as nice, but that's the only thing I can say that isn't actually better than the Buick. The quality of components and finish are as good if not better. As much as I liked my Buick, even if Buick made a direct competitor to the Model S, the only thing where they might be competitive for my business would be on price. Even then GM would have a big Con for not having an adequate long distance travel network.

My experience with the Buick, as good as it was, my customer experience with Tesla has been better. The distance to the nearest service center is a negative, but I've only been there once and they gave me a loaner which reduced the annoyance a fair bit.
 
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It might be in horrible condition. ;)

Only time will tell, but I've always felt that my cars should be used -- not placed into a museum.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” -- Hunter S Thompson

Actually, Thompson blew his brains out rounding third base on an in the park homer.

Sad. He should have wrecked a Harley or something so it would make a better legacy. A guy known for his guts, punches his own clock.
 
The car was built in California which has stricter paint regulations. They say (I don't know if it's true) that the paint is softer and more likely to scratch.
Ah, the "they say..." assertion. You sound like a certain orange politician that uses that to spew falsehoods. Good enough for the "I read it on the Internet" people, not nearly good enough for sentient humans.
 
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Ah, the "they say..." assertion. You sound like a certain orange politician that uses that to spew falsehoods. Good enough for the "I read it on the Internet" people, not nearly good enough for sentient humans.
I have heard the same rumor. It comes from people that do detailing on cars from different manufacturers and they do complain about this "softer" paint on the Tesla's. Especially the plain black paint.