Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

So being in MD, I looked up the CCS presence in my area....not bad at all! Only place it would be sketchy going to is Western MD (Deep Creek Lake, etc...). I hear there are some CCS chargers planned for i-68 in that neck of the woods though.

Compare the above to Tesla's SC presence in MD. Underwhelming is an understatement.

What are the charging rates on those CCS chargers?
How many plugs at each location?

 

[jgs]

Compare the above to Tesla's SC presence in MD. Underwhelming is an understatement.

As with so many other things, it's not how much you have, it's how you use it.

I actually hope that CCS network returns all the good happy charging pleasure the yellow-splattered map seems to promise, but it depends on quite a number of factors the map doesn't show, @ItsNotAboutTheMoney named a few. Time will tell.

 

[JRP3]

So being in MD, I looked up the CCS presence in my area....not bad at all! Only place it would be sketchy going to is Western MD (Deep Creek Lake, etc...). I hear there are some CCS chargers planned for i-68 in that neck of the woods though.

Hey, why not post a map of all 110 volt plugs as well? That would look impressive...

 

[McRat]

Really? What if the two year depreciation for any GM car vs any Japanese or German brand? How about a 2014 Cadillac XTS platinum? Top of the line -$60k+ new, best sedan they made. Worth about 50% now? ...

We sold our 2009 Caddy CTS-V after 6 years of ownership. It was $70k out the door, we sold it for $35k cash to a friend. Another friend is picking up one of our trucks with over 100k on it, and some dents. It's 13 years old, $12k. I could get more, but he's helped me alot at the racetrack over the years.

What are the charging rates on those CCS chargers?
How many plugs at each location?

There are 3 flavors, 24kW, 50kW, and 62,5kW. Most are singles or doubles, or if you include J1772, triples. But with so many locations, the number of plugs is high.

 

[techmaven]

So being in MD, I looked up the CCS presence in my area....not bad at all! Only place it would be sketchy going to is Western MD (Deep Creek Lake, etc...). I hear there are some CCS chargers planned for i-68 in that neck of the woods though.

Compare the above to Tesla's SC presence in MD. Underwhelming is an understatement.

You really, truly, don't get it. Why would you pay $0.25 to $1.00 per KWh for energy in your Bolt when you are near your residence and can pay far less? Only reason would be that you don't have a way to plug in at night. If that is the case, look for a J1772. Otherwise, the Tesla Supercharger network is far superior. The CCS map includes 24 kW EVSE's. I might as well add in all the HPWC designation chargers too then, the use case is identical, except that HPWC's are often free for patrons.

A Tesla owner with home charging in DC will almost always not care about the Superchargers in town. Drive 80-120 miles out... then look for charging locations. Everything within 80 mile radius of your residence is almost always something you will never use... only in a weird emergency.

I do get that you haven't owned a 200+ mile BEV before, so mentally adjusting to the difference may be hard. But come on... you have been absorbing this info for some time now. Maybe in about 6 months you will understand.

To go to NYC, for instance, you will want to charge to 100% overnight. Then drive as far as possible, preferably charging at around 10% SoC. You can actually sometimes make the trip without charging at all, but the destination must have a free plug. If you are charging along the way, you need one charging location. It should charge as fast as possible. It needs to have an open plug. It doesn't help if there are 8 separate locations with one or two plugs, you need one location with 8 plugs in northern NJ. They need to provide 80 kW for the lowest charging time. None provide 80 kW. All those CCS plugs near you do not help you at all. Now go look in northern NJ. The closest to NYC is a 24 kW CCS at a hotel. The next closest is a single plug EVgo CCS which is presumably 50 kW. One plug. $9.95 for 30 minutes. Gets you 90 EPA miles. If it is occupied, you get to wait or try to charge at 24 kW at the next location. If another Bolt owner plugged in just before you, the wait can be an hour and 15 minutes to plug in. Maybe you charge nearer to Philly just in case? Same kinds of issues.

 

[diamond.g]

We sold our 2009 Caddy CTS-V after 6 years of ownership. It was $70k out the door, we sold it for $35k cash to a friend. Another friend is picking up one of our trucks with over 100k on it, and some dents. It's 13 years old, $12k. I could get more, but he's helped me alot at the racetrack over the years.



There are 3 flavors, 24kW, 50kW, and 62,5kW. Most are singles or doubles, or if you include J1772, triples. But with so many locations, the number of plugs is high.

I wasn't aware you could DCFC using the CCS Standard without the J1772 plug... Okay maybe that was a little too snarky...

 

[diamond.g]

You really, truly, don't get it. Why would you pay $0.25 to $1.00 per KWh for energy in your Bolt when you are near your residence and can pay far less? Only reason would be that you don't have a way to plug in at night. If that is the case, look for a J1772. Otherwise, the Tesla Supercharger network is far superior. The CCS map includes 24 kW EVSE's. I might as well add in all the HPWC designation chargers too then, the use case is identical, except that HPWC's are often free for patrons.

A Tesla owner with home charging in DC will almost always not care about the Superchargers in town. Drive 120 miles out... then look for charging locations.

I do get that you haven't owned a 200+ mile BEV before, so mentally adjusting to the difference may be hard. But come on... you have been absorbing this info for some time now.

To be honest I can see where the issue is. Most EV's are <100 mi models (including the Volt if you don't want to use gas). So having lots of FC stations all over the place is helpful for really fast charging for the small batteries (Volt excluded). The CCS network hasn't really been implemented in a way to encourage traveling outside of the city, for a lot of EV owners. So unless the stations pick up the number of stalls per location, it is possible we will see the same lines the Tesla sees if the Bolt is as popular. Though it is possible it will be tempered because Chevy isn't charging the vehicles for 'free'.

 

[McRat]

I wasn't aware you could DCFC using the CCS Standard without the J1772 plug... Okay maybe that was a little too snarky...

No, I can't charge the Volts with a CCS connector. You need a pure 1772 to charge. But it allows a third car to charge at many sites, as they have a CCS, CHAdeMO, J1772 plugs that can be used. ie - a pure J1772 car cannot fill the CCS port.

Note, until yesterday, there were no "interstate" CCS cars for sale. Now that a CCS long range exists in the wild, we will see how the CCS network expands.

With an 80 mile CCS car, you drive an hour, charge 30 minutes, rinse and repeat. Not practical. With a 3 hour car, it starts to be less painful.

But there still does not exist a DCFC method that matches ICE abilities. Yet.

The West Coast has been covered enough for a Bolt. I think the East Coast is about there too.
The flyover states requires a 14-50 charger in places, and a long time at 25mph charging.
Sort of where Tesla started out.

 

[bro1999]

You really, truly, don't get it. Why would you pay $0.25 to $1.00 per KWh for energy in your Bolt when you are near your residence and can pay far less? Only reason would be that you don't have a way to plug in at night. If that is the case, look for a J1772. Otherwise, the Tesla Supercharger network is far superior. The CCS map includes 24 kW EVSE's. I might as well add in all the HPWC designation chargers too then, the use case is identical, except that HPWC's are often free for patrons.

A Tesla owner with home charging in DC will almost always not care about the Superchargers in town. Drive 80-120 miles out... then look for charging locations. Everything within 80 mile radius of your residence is almost always something you will never use... only in a weird emergency.

I do get that you haven't owned a 200+ mile BEV before, so mentally adjusting to the difference may be hard. But come on... you have been absorbing this info for some time now. Maybe in about 6 months you will understand.

To go to NYC, for instance, you will want to charge to 100% overnight. Then drive as far as possible, preferably charging at around 10% SoC. You can actually sometimes make the trip without charging at all, but the destination must have a free plug. If you are charging along the way, you need one charging location. It should charge as fast as possible. It needs to have an open plug. It doesn't help if there are 8 separate locations with one or two plugs, you need one location with 8 plugs in northern NJ. They need to provide 80 kW for the lowest charging time. None provide 80 kW. All those CCS plugs near you do not help you at all. Now go look in northern NJ. The closest to NYC is a 24 kW CCS at a hotel. The next closest is a single plug EVgo CCS which is presumably 50 kW. One plug. $9.95 for 30 minutes. Gets you 90 EPA miles. If it is occupied, you get to charge at 24 kW at the next location. Maybe you charge nearer to Philly just in case? Same kinds of issues.

What don't I get? The vast majority of those in-state CCS chargers I will never use, because the Bolt's 238 mile range (even in the winter) will cover almost all my local travel needs without any problems. And if for some reason I do have to use one of them? Lots to pick from! And if I have to pay 29 cents/kWh or however much it costs? No problem, as I don't expect free electricity.

And for long distance road trips to say Connecticut for instance? I admit it would be sketchy to perform such travel right now, but for someone as detailed oriented as myself, it would not require much extra work to plan out a trip. Plus with additional CCS chargers coming online every day, the gaps will become more and more filled in (especially once that VW money starts kicking in!).

You're making finding and using CCS charging stations some enormous feat that you have to pray in order to have success.

 

[techmaven]

There are 3 flavors, 24kW, 50kW, and 62,5kW. Most are singles or doubles, or if you include J1772, triples. But with so many locations, the number of plugs is high.

62.5's are 50's. Both supply 125 amps. The design of the network is wrong for DCFC. The charge rates are too low, the costs are too high, the number of plugs per location is far too low, and worst, there is no business model which means fixing these things is going to be near impossible. That entire generation of DCFC will have to be scrapped. It should never had existed in the first place.

 

[McRat]

You really, truly, don't get it. Why would you pay $0.25 to $1.00 per KWh for energy in your Bolt when you are near your residence and can pay far less? Only reason would be that you don't have a way to plug in at night. If that is the case, look for a J1772. Otherwise, the Tesla Supercharger network is far superior. The CCS map includes 24 kW EVSE's. I might as well add in all the HPWC designation chargers too then, the use case is identical, except that HPWC's are often free for patrons.

A Tesla owner with home charging in DC will almost always not care about the Superchargers in town. Drive 80-120 miles out... then look for charging locations. Everything within 80 mile radius of your residence is almost always something you will never use... only in a weird emergency.

I do get that you haven't owned a 200+ mile BEV before, so mentally adjusting to the difference may be hard. But come on... you have been absorbing this info for some time now. Maybe in about 6 months you will understand.

To go to NYC, for instance, you will want to charge to 100% overnight. Then drive as far as possible, preferably charging at around 10% SoC. You can actually sometimes make the trip without charging at all, but the destination must have a free plug. If you are charging along the way, you need one charging location. It should charge as fast as possible. It needs to have an open plug. It doesn't help if there are 8 separate locations with one or two plugs, you need one location with 8 plugs in northern NJ. They need to provide 80 kW for the lowest charging time. None provide 80 kW. All those CCS plugs near you do not help you at all. Now go look in northern NJ. The closest to NYC is a 24 kW CCS at a hotel. The next closest is a single plug EVgo CCS which is presumably 50 kW. One plug. $9.95 for 30 minutes. Gets you 90 EPA miles. If it is occupied, you get to wait or try to charge at 24 kW at the next location. If another Bolt owner plugged in just before you, the wait can be an hour and 15 minutes to plug in. Maybe you charge nearer to Philly just in case? Same kinds of issues.

Current (har) non-Tesla DCFC infrastructure is for the ~150,000 BEV's in the US with short range.
To go to the next city over, you park at the nearest DCFC, conduct your business, then drive home, giving you double the combat radius.

 

[techmaven]

What don't I get? The vast majority of those in-state CCS chargers I will never use, because the Bolt's 238 mile range (even in the winter) will cover almost all my local travel needs without any problems. And if for some reason I do have to use one of them? Lots to pick from! And if I have to pay 29 cents/kWh or however much it costs? No problem, as I don't expect free electricity.

And for long distance road trips to say Connecticut for instance? I admit it would be sketchy to perform such travel right now, but for someone as detailed oriented as myself, it would not require much extra work to plan out a trip. Plus with additional CCS chargers coming online every day, the gaps will become more and more filled in (especially once that VW money starts kicking in!).

You're making finding and using CCS charging stations some enormous feat that you have to pray in order to have success.

Then why are you comparing CCS to Tesla Superchargers? The fact that you attempt to still compare the existing CCS network which has zero L3 EVSE's deployed to the Tesla Supercharger network which are all multi-plug L3 DC demonstrates that you don't get it. The gaps are not being filled right now because there are no L3's. But of course, you bought the first gen Bolt... the one that didn't get L3 and can't use the upcoming L3 network as an L3 network. Again, what will the station spacing be for the L3 network? What will your travel cadence be on that network?

Sure, people have travelled around the country on J1772's and NEMA 14-50's. Not something you would expect anyone but diehards to do. The first gen Bolt is an odd duck that way... no L3 when the standard is coming out within a year and misses out on utilizing the new network. All Tesla's can utilize the new L3 CCS with an adapter. You don't need an adapter, but can't take L3 charging rates.

 

[techmaven]

Current (har) non-Tesla DCFC infrastructure is for the ~150,000 BEV's in the US with short range.
To go to the next city over, you park at the nearest DCFC, conduct your business, then drive home, giving you double the combat radius.

And have people screaming across the internet at you for hogging a plug? You think every parking garage will have many CCS DCFC? You have not thought this through. The costs for DCFC start at $8k installed per plug. No... plug into a J1772 instead. A parking garage can put in 4-5x J1772 per 24 kW CCS, 10-15x per 50/62.5 kW CCS. Destination charging will have to be J1772 AC L2.

 

[bro1999]

Sure, people have travelled around the country on J1772's and NEMA 14-50's. Not something you would expect anyone but diehards to do. The first gen Bolt is an odd duck that way... no L3 when the standard is coming out within a year and misses out on utilizing the new network. All Tesla's can utilize the new L3 CCS with an adapter. You don't need an adapter, but can't take L3 charging rates.

Please post the official L3 DC fast charging standards. Thanks.

 

[techmaven]

Please post the official L3 DC fast charging standards. Thanks.

I have a copy of the existing SAE J1772-DC standard. You can get your own from SAE.org. L3 version of the standard is expected to be finalized sometime in 2017 with first products at the end of 2017.

 

[Jeff N]

the Tesla Supercharger network is far superior. The CCS map includes 24 kW EVSE's. I might as well add in all the HPWC designation chargers too then,

Although many Tesla cars can only charge at about 10 kW at 240V and newer ones 12 kW unless they have an optional dual charger which is uncommon in the US cars.

The first gen Bolt is an odd duck that way... no L3 when the standard is coming out within a year and misses out on utilizing the new network. All Tesla's can utilize the new L3 CCS with an adapter. You don't need an adapter, but can't take L3 charging rates.

The Bolt EV will certainly be able to utilize the new highway corridor CCS locations.

It is presently unclear and unsettled whether the 2017 Bolt will be able to charge at over 160A or 200A. We will have to wait and see. Even if it is limited to 160A, it will still be reasonably usable by many for trips that involve one or two charging stops per day along with an overnight destination charge or, in other words, around 400 miles of driving per day.

Using "L3" to describe the upcoming CCS standard for greater than 200A is technically accurate but confusing since for years people have referred to L1 as 120V AC, L2 as 240V AC, and L3 as DC charging generally. Your L3 is referring to "DC Level 3" which is a specific sub designation within DC charging in the J1772 standard which will advance beyond the L1 and L2 DC levels shown on the image below.

.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

There are 3 flavors, 24kW, 50kW, and 62,5kW. Most are singles or doubles, or if you include J1772, triples. But with so many locations, the number of plugs is high.

And there's the problem: you don't want to have to trawl for a working, unoccupied charger or wait a long time for a space to become free. More locations, but few plugs per location is worse than having few locations with many plugs per location.

(And 24kW should simply be ignored.)

 

[MP3Mike]

The Bolt EV will certainly be able to utilize the new highway corridor CCS locations.

Assuming that you have paid for the CCS charging option on your Bolt. It doesn't come standard, and probably can't be added after purchase.

 

[Jeff N]

Assuming that you have paid for the CCS charging option on your Bolt. It doesn't come standard, and probably can't be added after purchase.

True, but then DC charging adapters haven't been free for Tesla drivers.

 

[stopcrazypp]

And there's the problem: you don't want to have to trawl for a working, unoccupied charger or wait a long time for a space to become free. More locations, but few plugs per location is worse than having few locations with many plugs per location.

(And 24kW should simply be ignored.)

There's where all the existing networks have gotten it wrong, at least for a long range network. The current "cluster" based design (which follows from CHAdeMO) works to provide charging for short range vehicles like the Leaf, but doesn't make sense for long range travel. Definitely better to have many plugs at one location, so you don't have to waste range driving around to find an open station.