Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[McRat]

I do not know, as I have not done the complete math myself.

But the article translates 90miles/30minutes into 145km/30minutes, and with 50kW charging - flat charing curve with 50kW the hole time - that is 25kWh. 25kWh for 145km is about 172Wh/km. And I have heard about Model S's with lower consumption then that (summertime, nice temperatures, no AC or heat, low speed on rural roads and (almost) same level). So it might be doable still? If it has a flat charging curve (and was this not specified "from low"? Where it does the charing at the fastest rate?).

Going the other way, assuming a consumption of 150Wh/km gives 21,7kWh for 145km, and that is under an average of 50kW charging in 30minutes.

So he may have to redo his math? Maybe?

The EPA data says 28 kWh for 100 miles.

It is wrong to assume a charging curve is flat for 30 minute straight, but if it is, it will still be slightly short at a "50kW" nameplate charger.

My theory is that GM knows what charging is out there in December 2016. It peaks out at 62.5 kWh. I believe that is what it will take.

I could be wrong. We will see.

 

[diamond.g]

The EPA data says 28 kWh for 100 miles.

It is wrong to assume a charging curve is flat for 30 minute straight, but if it is, it will still be slightly short at a "50kW" nameplate charger.

My theory is that GM knows what charging is out there in December 2016. It peaks out at 62.5 kWh. I believe that is what it will take.

I could be wrong. We will see.

So when fast charging, Voltage should stay consistent, but amperage should drop right? So GM/Opel is saying the Bolt can take 50kW, but are they saying 400V * 125A? Or are they saying 400V * 160A, or 500V * 125A? Seems like 500V is really high to charge a 350V pack with.

 

[Model 3]

The EPA data says 28 kWh for 100 miles.

And that is 25,2kWh for 90 miles. And that is really close to 50kW power in 30 minutes.

It is wrong to assume a charging curve is flat for 30 minute straight

I know that that would be a rare case if that what they are calculating. But doable - in theory.

 

[JRP3]

So when fast charging, Voltage should stay consistent, but amperage should drop right?

Voltage should climb until it hits peak then current should decline.

 

[bro1999]

Today is basically the 6th anniversary of the first delivery of the Gen 1 Volt. Wouldn't it be something if the first Bolt delivery were to also happen on this day?

 

[McRat]

So when fast charging, Voltage should stay consistent, but amperage should drop right? So GM/Opel is saying the Bolt can take 50kW, but are they saying 400V * 125A? Or are they saying 400V * 160A, or 500V * 125A? Seems like 500V is really high to charge a 350V pack with.

When a conductor gets warmer, it's resistance climbs, hence it's efficiency. The hotter the cables, charger, and battery are, the less kW's you get to keep. But for now ignore that.

The 96 series cell arrays used by GM will be fully charged at roughly 400 volts (4.15v per cell). Charging at 400v will take forever to get past 90%.

Let's say your pack is at 375 volts. You apply 400 volts to it. Ignoring resistance.
There is a 25v difference. Apply 200 amps, and that is a meager 5kW charging rate.
Apply 500v, that is a 125v difference, apply 200 amps, and that is a more useful 25kW.
But as the pack voltage climbs, those kW's have to continue to fall.

Let's say your pack is at 390v, the first is 2kW, barely enough to handle the cooling and ECM load.
At 500v, it's 110 x 200 or 22kW.

I have a hunch the answer will be at least 450vdc charging.

 

[McRat]

I have a crashed 2012 Volt array from 2013. I do not know the charge status when the car was scrapped.

After 3 year of sitting, I just grabbed 3 individual cells (DO NOT CUT OPEN VOLT ARRAYS. DANGER)

They are 3.86vdc IIRC, they were 3.91vdc 3.5 years ago.

They are LG cells - P20814841

96 x 3.86 = 370.6vdc for the array. Call it 370.

At 400v and 200a it would be 6kW on a DCFC.. A Volt will ALWAYS accept 60kW charging through regen. I bet this battery is no more than 1/2 charged.

 

[McRat]

If anybody has connection with LG Chem, send me a PM indicating what the charging window is on these cells. I have 288 of them and was going to turn an Insight into an EV at one point. Now I'm trying to make a Trials Motorcycle.

 

[bro1999]

Today is basically the 6th anniversary of the first delivery of the Gen 1 Volt. Wouldn't it be something if the first Bolt delivery were to also happen on this day?

The Bolt has landed! It's like I knew the info ahead of time or something.

First Chevrolet Bolt EVs Delivered, Nationwide Release By Mid-2017

 

[JRP3]

Let's say your pack is at 390v, the first is 2kW, barely enough to handle the cooling and ECM load.
At 500v, it's 110 x 200 or 22kW.

I have a hunch the answer will be at least 450vdc charging.

That's not how it works. The charger applies a current to the pack, pack voltage rises in response to that current. The charger simply uses voltage as an indicator to reduce current.

 

[diamond.g]

When a conductor gets warmer, it's resistance climbs, hence it's efficiency. The hotter the cables, charger, and battery are, the less kW's you get to keep. But for now ignore that.

The 96 series cell arrays used by GM will be fully charged at roughly 400 volts (4.15v per cell). Charging at 400v will take forever to get past 90%.

Let's say your pack is at 375 volts. You apply 400 volts to it. Ignoring resistance.
There is a 25v difference. Apply 200 amps, and that is a meager 5kW charging rate.
Apply 500v, that is a 125v difference, apply 200 amps, and that is a more useful 25kW.
But as the pack voltage climbs, those kW's have to continue to fall.

Let's say your pack is at 390v, the first is 2kW, barely enough to handle the cooling and ECM load.
At 500v, it's 110 x 200 or 22kW.

I have a hunch the answer will be at least 450vdc charging.

I am not sure if the newer FW versions still show it, but Bjorn posted some tests showing the SC speed vs chademo, and it shows the Amperage and Voltage into the pack (best guess). Based on that it appears that the 85 pack took 368V * 314A. The 60 took 336V * 186A. While the chademo connection was 347V * 99A.

Basically I am unsure of what you mean by talking about the differential in voltage though. Is the Bolt pack a 400V pack or 350? If the 85 pack was 400V how was it able to charge with only 368V input?

 

[30seconds]

It is not 1980 anymore. It hasn't been for 36 years. But even in the Craptastic 80's, of the top ten quickest street cars, there was a Pontiac Firebird (RIP), two Buicks, and a Corvette. An unobtainium Porsche 959 (345 produced, not all street legal) was #1, a limited Ferrari was #10. No Fords, no Dodges, no Japanese cars, no Mercedes, no BMW's, and a single Ferrari. The Corvette set a world 24hr endurance record at LeMans IIRC.

Oldsmobile is long gone, but the Silhouettes we hauled infants around in were great trouble free cars with built in video entertainment systems and really comfy and quiet long haulers. Cadillacs are now a performance brand. The fastest roadracing 4 door in 2009 was a Cadillac, and modern ones compete in road racing.

GM knew the real battle was going to be digital closed loop engine controls before most mfrs did. This is how they came out on top in this area.

GM has been leading the quest for performance that complies with EPA and CAFE. Today, the stingiest large SUV's and full sized trucks are GM.

General Motors was hampered by urban legend ever since Ralph Nader decided to target the Corvair, and they have carried that illusion today. Ironically, there was nothing wrong with the Corvairs, which are now collectable. Their safety record was no worse than average, and apparently due to "donations" from legal firms.

But the cars they sold to the public were absolute crap. Maybe a few could do OK in a drag, but the other 99% would have significant engine, transmission and electrical problems in a few years. And no, not 1980. Even in the very late 90s, the cars were extremely shitty. My mom's 1999 olds had problem after problem. I finally bought her a Hyundai over my dad's objections which has been remarkably pleasant and trouble free.

I'm sorry you hate to hear this, but other than a few GM diehards almost no one looks at GM and thinks "top tier car company." Where would GM be without fleet sales to rental agencies? When was the last time GM made a car that was on the top 10 models sold in the US? How many GM cars are out there driving with 200,000 miles on the odometer?

Maybe the Bolt is a decent car. Maybe. But to be GM quality & follow-through remains in the "now you need to prove it" bucket. Lets see in 24-36 months if GM is still supporting EVs and launching follow-on products. I really doubt it.

 

[diamond.g]

That's not how it works. The charger applies a current to the pack, pack voltage rises in response to that current. The charger simply uses voltage as an indicator to reduce current.

Ah, so the Voltage isn't actually relevant until it maxes out (thus causing the amperage to lower)?

 

[RubberToe]

This probably goes without saying, but could the first person to take possession of a new Bolt please start a new thread where we can discuss actual results and impressions?

RT

 

[Jeff N]

Is the Bolt pack a 400V pack or 350? If the 85 pack was 400V how was it able to charge with only 368V input?

Battery pack specifications talk about nominal voltage levels. I'm not certain of the precise definition, but approximately, it represents the pack voltage when the pack is half full. The Bolt EV is rated as 350V and the 2016 Spark EV is 360V. I think, although I'm a little fuzzy on this, that the original Tesla S60 was about 350V and the S85 was closer to 400V because more of the S85 cell groups are wired into series than the S60 pack.

When a pack is less than 50% full it will have a voltage less than its nominal specified voltage and when it is near full it will have a higher voltage. So, a near empty S60 might have a pack voltage of closer to 320V and a near full S60 might be closer to 390V. I don't remember the exact numbers and am too lazy to look them up. Because the S85 has more cells in series, it's empty and full values are higher than an S60 and that means it needs less current to charge at the same kW power level at a Supercharger.

 

[30seconds]

This probably goes without saying, but could the first person to take possession of a new Bolt please start a new thread where we can discuss actual results and impressions?

RT

The first one was randomly delivered to a family in Fremont, Ca so I am sure they will be posting soon

 

[scottf200]

The first one was randomly delivered to a family in Fremont, Ca so I am sure they will be posting soon

Via: First Chevrolet Bolt EVs Delivered, Nationwide Release By Mid-2017

"...the first three Bolt EVs were delivered in the San Francisco Bay area.."

At the same time the company gave us a mini-update on the new roll-out schedule for the Bolt EV:

• EVs are currently in transit to California and Oregon markets and are arriving this month
• a number of Northeast and Mid-Atlantic States including New York, Massachusetts and Virginia will see first deliveries this winter
• Bolt EVs will arrive to more dealerships in additional major metro markets throughout the first half of 2017
• nationwide at certified dealers mid-2017

 

[diamond.g]

Via: First Chevrolet Bolt EVs Delivered, Nationwide Release By Mid-2017

To be honest I am really surprised Va will see any Bolts so soon. Wonder if they meant Maryland.

 

[JRP3]

Ah, so the Voltage isn't actually relevant until it maxes out (thus causing the amperage to lower)?

Correct.

 

[jgillispie]

All of this depends on sales. Will GM increase production if they sell the initial 30k vehicles in a short time period? If they are losing money on each then I'd assume no.