Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

[barjohn]

assymetry, I have no idea where you got the idea that I was fired. I retired at 72 a few years ago. rob lab, our lab held various DoD national standards for NIST and developed numerous NIST standards. I never saw any instruments calibrated daily. Do you know what calibration is? We had instruments capable of measuring to 1 millionth of an inch in a highly controlled laboratory environment where no one could leave or enter the room until measurements were completed and only after everything had stabilized. I never said scientists were incapable of accurate measurements. It is done in the laboratory environment all of the time. If you are going to take temperature measurement around the world on land and sea including some very remote locations, there are many variables that can affect the accuracy of those measurements and one of those is having calibrated instruments. It is both impractical and too costly to perform frequent calibrations on all of those instruments thus they have some degree of error. Errors can be stacking or subtracting, the problem is knowing how great the error is and wether it is adding or subtracting from the reading. Correlation to some other equally inaccurate instrument is not confirmation of a reading.

I noticed that none of you said you could accurately predict gas flow in a subway yet you want me to believe that you can accurately predict future temperature of the entire globe in 50 or 100 years. The weatherman can't even accurately predict the weather the next day (I mean 99.9% accurate every single prediction) and that is orders of magnitude simpler to calculate.

Read the following article and arguments in the comments and just maybe you will start to understand the failings of so called climatologists: CO2 Absorption Spectrum & The Bogus Greenhouse Gas Effect | PSI Intl

 

[nwdiver]

I noticed that none of you said you could accurately predict gas flow in a subway yet you want me to believe that you can accurately predict future temperature of the entire globe in 50 or 100 years. The weatherman can't even accurately predict the weather the next day (I mean 99.9% accurate every single prediction) and that is orders of magnitude simpler to calculate.

..... you don't understand weather vs climate? LOL....

Seasons are a type of climate change... pretty... pretty easy to predict... just like the physical effects of CO2. It's probably gonna be colder in 6 months than it is today. It's probably gonna be A LOT warmer in 10 years than it is today... thanks in large part to POS deniers and the fools fuel addiction they enable.

 

[barjohn]

Yes, I do understand the difference. However using predictive math models is the same methodology with a different hypothesis and set of variables. The simple facts as stated by tomomason:

So lets build a computer program to predict weather/climate.

Do we know all the weather/climate variables? — NO
Have we quantified all the weather/climate variables? — NO
Do we know how all the weather/climate variables act and react? –NO
Do we have all the histories of all weather/climate variables to a good accuracy or precision? — NO

Can we build a computer program that can accurately simulate the weather/climate?
NO!

We can attempt to build one, however I strongly doubt it will be accurate, stable, or in the long term reliable. We (of course) don’t know enough about all the known unknowns, and there is no way of knowing all the unknown unknowns. At least good meteorologist understand that their computer programs are not perfect, climate people have yet to realize that.
But currently it is politically expedient for politicians to gain power, and for so called ‘climate scientists’ to get well paid jobs just through demonizing CO2, while blaming western life on it’s rise without having the evidence to support such a view.
How strange the human world is, with it’s astigmatically myopic view of the rest of the planet.

 

[nwdiver]

Yes, I do understand the difference. However using predictive math models is the same methodology with a different hypothesis and set of variables. The simple facts as stated by tomomason:

So lets build a computer program to predict weather/climate.

Do we know all the weather/climate variables? — NO
Have we quantified all the weather/climate variables? — NO
Do we know how all the weather/climate variables act and react? –NO
Do we have all the histories of all weather/climate variables to a good accuracy or precision? — NO

Can we build a computer program that can accurately simulate the weather/climate?
NO!

We can attempt to build one, however I strongly doubt it will be accurate, stable, or in the long term reliable. We (of course) don’t know enough about all the known unknowns, and there is no way of knowing all the unknown unknowns. At least good meteorologist understand that their computer programs are not perfect, climate people have yet to realize that.
But currently it is politically expedient for politicians to gain power, and for so called ‘climate scientists’ to get well paid jobs just through demonizing CO2, while blaming western life on it’s rise without having the evidence to support such a view.
How strange the human world is, with it’s astigmatically myopic view of the rest of the planet.

Do we know the dominant forcing mechanism? YES

Given the physical properties of CO2 how could adding 40B tons/yr NOT cause warming?

You're basically saying we should ignore the forest hidden in all these trees........ because no one knows how many trees there are?

It's not just measurement... it's math. The spectrum of CO2 is will known. From there it's just a shielding equation. The increase of CO2 from 280 to the pathetically high ~400 we've let it get to, adds ~1.5w/m^2 which when you do the math oddly matches the measured increase in thermal heat content of the oceans and atmosphere.... weird how that works when the thing you're measuring is real.....

having the evidence to support such a view.

???? What's this?????

The most elite science organization in the world JASON? A work of fiction? Really? No Evidence?

The observation that CO2 preferentially absorbs CO2 vs Visible light? The fact that CO2 levels are ~40% higher because of our addiction? What would convince you? What 'qualifies' as evidence in your ideologically locked mind?

 

[SageBrush]

Yes, I do understand the difference.

What is your science or science related education ?

 

[nwdiver]

 

[mspohr]

Losing Earth: The Decade We Almost Stopped Climate Change Losing Earth: The Decade We Almost Stopped Climate Change
Interesting detailed history of climate change. We knew everything we know now in the 60s but missed the opportunity to do something.

 

[mspohr]

Losing Earth: The Decade We Almost Stopped Climate Change Losing Earth: The Decade We Almost Stopped Climate Change
Interesting detailed history of climate change. We knew everything we know now in the 60s but missed the opportunity to do something.

Here's a critique of the NYT article:
Scientists aren’t impressed with New York Times’ new story on climate change
Basically they say the article gives the fossil fuel industry a pass and places the blame on "all of us".
Bob Brulle, a Drexel University sociologist and author of numerous studies on climate politics and lobbying, said in a media statement, “This article strikes me as a highly selective historical account that omits key facts that run counter to its overall narrative.”

In particular, “its treatment of industry actors is limited to their official statements, and neglect their political actions,” Brulle said. Those political actions have always been to oppose action on climate change and spread disinformation.

 

[nwdiver]

Here's a critique of the NYT article:
Scientists aren’t impressed with New York Times’ new story on climate change
Basically they say the article gives the fossil fuel industry a pass and places the blame on "all of us".
Bob Brulle, a Drexel University sociologist and author of numerous studies on climate politics and lobbying, said in a media statement, “This article strikes me as a highly selective historical account that omits key facts that run counter to its overall narrative.”

In particular, “its treatment of industry actors is limited to their official statements, and neglect their political actions,” Brulle said. Those political actions have always been to oppose action on climate change and spread disinformation.

More historians that scientists. It was a disgraceful attempt at historical revisionism.

 

[gene]

Video Interview with Nathanial Rich on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now: “Losing Earth”: How Humanity Came to Understand Climate Change & Failed to Act in Time | Democracy Now!

 

[nwdiver]

Video Interview with Nathanial Rich on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now: “Losing Earth”: How Humanity Came to Understand Climate Change & Failed to Act in Time | Democracy Now!

It's almost like the AGW version of southern states saying the civil war was over 'states rights'.... Fools fuel companies and the politicians they bribed are trying to dodge responsibility for the terrible position they've left us in.

 

[SageBrush]

It's almost like the AGW version of southern states saying the civil war was over 'states rights'.... Fools fuel companies and the politicians they bribed are trying to dodge responsibility for the terrible position they've left us in.

I completely agree about the politicians and companies but you know just as well as I do that a large fraction of the electorate vote against AGW action.

Heck, denialists are all too frequent on this forum of all places. With democracy comes the responsibility to be informed, or to suffer the consequences. Trumpism did not start in 2016

 

[nwdiver]

I completely agree about the politicians and companies but you know just as well as I do that a large fraction of the electorate vote against AGW action.

Heck, denialists are all too frequent on this forum of all places. With democracy comes the responsibility to be informed, or to suffer the consequences. Trumpism did not start in 2016

To some extent it's a two part dance. The misinformation spread by the fools fuel lobby helped turn the electorate but the lack of political leadership didn't help either.

 

[SageBrush]

the lack of political leadership didn't help either.

Who voted for the degenerate that declared multiple times that AGW is a Chinese hoax ?

Close to half the country.

 

[Sharkbait]

The waters off San Diego hit 78.5ºF a day ago. Wonder how this will affect sustainable fishing? Is our coast becoming hypoxic?

 

[mspohr]

Here's a critique of the NYT article:
Scientists aren’t impressed with New York Times’ new story on climate change
Basically they say the article gives the fossil fuel industry a pass and places the blame on "all of us".
Bob Brulle, a Drexel University sociologist and author of numerous studies on climate politics and lobbying, said in a media statement, “This article strikes me as a highly selective historical account that omits key facts that run counter to its overall narrative.”

In particular, “its treatment of industry actors is limited to their official statements, and neglect their political actions,” Brulle said. Those political actions have always been to oppose action on climate change and spread disinformation.

Another critique from Naomi Klein
Capitalism Killed Our Climate Momentum, Not “Human Nature”
We have not done the things that are necessary to lower emissions because those things fundamentally conflict with deregulated capitalism, t

 

[Skotty]

Another critique from Naomi Klein
Capitalism Killed Our Climate Momentum, Not “Human Nature”
We have not done the things that are necessary to lower emissions because those things fundamentally conflict with deregulated capitalism, t

That's why you are supposed to have regulated capitalism.

 

[Skotty]

I'm sometimes divided on climate change and environmental protection. On one hand, I want the best for humanity and future generations, and that's really what drives me to care. On the other hand, so many of us either don't care, ignore the science, or are just too dumb to see the danger, and that makes me doubt whether or not I'm really part of species that deserves good fortune and a future. Maybe letting us burn is the course we deserve. There are those who do care and fight for a brighter future, and I'm pretty sure I should always fight for them and along side them, but it's so disheartening to keep up the good fight when there is so much shame for society as a whole (and not just because of climate).

 

[Merrill]

I'm sometimes divided on climate change and environmental protection. On one hand, I want the best for humanity and future generations, and that's really what drives me to care. On the other hand, so many of us either don't care, ignore the science, or are just too dumb to see the danger, and that makes me doubt whether or not I'm really part of species that deserves good fortune and a future. Maybe letting us burn is the course we deserve. There are those who do care and fight for a brighter future, and I'm pretty sure I should always fight for them and along side them, but it's so disheartening to keep up the good fight when there is so much shame for society as a whole (and not just because of climate).

I’m totally with you on this, but if everybody does their part it helps. Even though I get disheartened by those who either do not care or are to dumb to know better I still want to do my tiny part. I continually fail to understand why you would not want to make this world a better place, even if you are a denier why not live your life so your kids have a better future.

 

[ggies07]

I’m totally with you on this, but if everybody does their part it helps. Even though I get disheartened by those who either do not care or are to dumb to know better I still want to do my tiny part. I continually fail to understand why you would not want to make this world a better place, even if you are a denier why not live your life so your kids have a better future.

I have the same thoughts as Skotty from time to time, but then I look over at my 7 year old daughter and instantly think I must do everything I can for her and her future generations......its why I'm so upset with Tesla screwing up the cell production lines and pushing everything back. Time is just a measure of change and there's too much change going on with our planet for **** ups.