Cold Weather Chicago?

[father_of_6]

Anyone ever seen the snowflake icon before?

All the time in the winter. You just get used to knowing that your range will take a hit. It's still a fantastic car in cold climates. Better than any other vehicle I've owned or driven in.

 

[Yelobird]

My parents are originally from India. Anyhow house was built 1980. And I was not complaining about the cost. I was simply wondering if I could piggy back off the central vac or not. I said nothing about the cost. My cousin said Tesla is the safest car in the world. Any compared to other electrics Tesla wins hands down most of the time. So if I can't install a separate dedicated 220 or 240v outlet then a Tesla is out of the question. Or any electric for the matter. Cost is secondary as long as I have the space in my breaker box as TRONGUY said. And it's maybe a 1,000 as somebody said. Not 10,000. Cost is secondary. I need to see if I have space and where I am going to stick the outlet. Cost will be determined after I see if I can even add an extra outlet in my garage.

You schedule the Tesla to charge at night for off peak costs. Unless you plan to vacuum at midnight or later this sounds like a simple problem if you already have 240/220 in the garage. Also, unless you plan to drive 100 plus miles per day it doesn’t have to be a nightly event. We have endured multiple feet of snow and many Very cold dates in Chicago as well as several Crazy cold (-40 ish) trips to MN without an issue. It’s basically a 4WD tank.

 

[Goobers]

I just found this.

Tesla in cold weather – your questions, answered

Everything you need to know about driving a Tesla in cold weather, including tips on using onboard technology to maximize range and much more.

www.hertz.com

In a Tesla, look out for the snowflake icon – it means it’s too cold for full power and range.

Anyone ever seen the snowflake icon before?

You can get it on a cold day, not necessarily freezing. It's like a regular gas car, in that without preconditioning, the battery will be cold at first when you drive. It affects the chemistry. After a while, it'll warm up and you'll get more out of the battery.

I wouldn't worry about it, unless you turn off blended braking. When the battery is too cold, it can't accept a charge as fast as it might be necessary during full regen braking. That means you won't be braking as hard as you might need to come to a full stop (before smashing into the car in front). So, you need blended braking to use the regular brakes to make up for it.

Sure, I skipped over the fact that you might not get as much performance out of the battery when its cold. But, is that (3, 4 or 5 second 0-60) really necessary when its cold?

 

[rolling green]

Very few teslas? Come to the northern burbs where model Y's have taken over minivans, highlanders, and pilots. No issues with the Y in chicago weather, I actually prefer it over my old highlander. I believe we had a pretty good cold spell (-10) last year and the Y was less efficient maybe lost 10-15% on my daily commute. Other than that it handles the cold and snow great. Being able to defrost and warm up your car from anywhere is such a luxury. I charge to 90% at home at 48A everyday, daily commute is 70 miles round trip. School pickup (i'm probably idle in the car watching hulu/netflix for 1hr a day) and afterschool activities puts me around 40% at the end of day. I charge every night from 12:00am to roughly 3:30am. My Y is lowered as low as it can go and on all season tires and it's great. Snowy days are not an issue but chicago hasn't had a big 10"-20" snow storm in a few years but i'm not worried.

 

[father_of_6]

I charge to 90% at home at 40A everyday, daily commute is 70 miles round trip. School pickup (i'm probably idle in the car watching hulu/netflix for 1hr a day) and afterschool activities puts me around 40% at the end of day.

60-10% would be slightly healthier for the battery (less degradation).

Being able to defrost and warm up your car from anywhere is such a luxury.

This is so spot on. There are many former BMW / Mercedes / Audi owners who say that Tesla is not luxury because the interior materials don't measure up with what they had before. While Tesla's aim is for mass market, the convenience of their EVs makes them luxury to me (and many others).

We dread having to drive our non-Tesla vehicle. It's a cold, cold cabin to get into in the middle of winter.

@KJSS4 - get the car already! Tax credits and any current discounts are likely to change on Jan 1st. Come back and let us know how great it is (but we already know).

 

[jcanoe]

I just found this.

Tesla in cold weather – your questions, answered

Everything you need to know about driving a Tesla in cold weather, including tips on using onboard technology to maximize range and much more.

www.hertz.com

In a Tesla, look out for the snowflake icon – it means it’s too cold for full power and range.

Anyone ever seen the snowflake icon before?

I see the blue snow flake all of the time in winter. Normal driving is unaffected (you might notice the difference on a timed 0 to 60 run,) As far as range goes, simply driving will gradually warm the battery and then the normal range would be available.

If you enable the blended friction braking setting under Pedals & Steering then you will not notice any change to the way the Tesla Model Y slows as you lift your right foot from the accelerator pedal even when the battery is cold. I used to spend more time preconditioning in an attempt to recoup partial regenerative braking by warming the battery. This is now unnecessary as the Tesla Model Y drives and slows the same when Blended Friction Braking is turned on. You don't lose any regenerative braking capability, only augmenting regenerative braking with the friction brakes as required.

 

[Ceviche35]

I'm in the Chicago Western Suburbs with 2 x Tesla vehicles in the Garage. I drive weekly out of state and that includes winter driving to Northern Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota - No problems for me getting Supercharging along the routes. I drive a Model Y LR and yes the efficiency drops in the winter due to cold but never an real issue. I too see the snowflake when the car is cold but never noticed a loss of power (reduced) or problem braking. The acceleration is more than robust and able to get you up to speed quicker than any other car or SUV I've owned. In my opinion, I consider one of the primary benefits of EV's to be home charging at your convenience and I belive you will really want to have 240V charging. I use the Tesla mobile connector currently, but might add the Wall Charger next as I would like 48A charging for my Model Y and cost to upgrade should be the cost of the wall connector at $475 as the 240V heavy 6Gauge wires are there for a 14-50 outlet now. I'd recommend you go test drive your model of choice at a Tesla retail location near you and see if the car is right for you and your needs.

 

[Big Earl]

60-10% would be slightly healthier for the battery (less degradation).

80% to 30% sounds like a sweet spot for this situation, as it would balance a lower top SOC with enough buffer for incidentals like snow, wind, an unexpected trip to pick a kid up from school, etc.

 

[gx9901]

When it comes to winter, all I can say is that I've had my MYP for 2 Minnesota winters (heading into the 3rd), drive an average of 2,000 miles per month, and have not had any winter related problems whatsoever. In fact, it's far and away the best car I've ever owned for winter because I never have to freeze my butt off at a gas station, and I always pre-condition my car so it's nice and toasty when I get in instead of being freezing cold for 10 minutes while the engine warms up.

Yes, EV range is compromised in the winter, sometimes severely in places like Minnesota, but there are tons and tons (and tons) of information right here at TMC about this car. Doing some research and learning the ins and outs of the car around these forums will prepare you well to deal with anything that might up or help you mitigate potential issues.

 

[tunnu]

First off: The motor and all in a Tesla work just fine at -40F. They test the vehicles up in Alaska.

Second: Modern Teslas come with a heat pump. This helps two ways:

1. Extracts heat from outside cold air to heat the cabin. (There's a lot of heat needed in the cabin so people got toasty toes.)
2. Extracts heat from outside cold air to heat the batteries/motors.

A Tesla will use waste heat (i.e., copper getting warm from the current; batteries getting warm from current flowing through them) to heat the batteries, motors, and to some extent, the cabin. There is an optimal temperature for all that stuff.

I used to have a 2018 M3 that had no heat pump. In warm weather, the car got 250 W-hr/mile; in cold weather, it got 350 W-hr/mile, that extra 100 W-hr/mile being used to heat the cabin with. The SO has a 2021 MY that, in warm weather, would get 280 W-hr/mile. In cold weather, as soon as one turned it on, it would do 350 W-hr/mile, then warm up, and the energy used would drop down to 290-300 W-hr/mile.

Yeah, and the seats are electrically heated, as is the steering wheel, with the intent that it's kind of cheaper to keep the cabin cooler and get warm from the seat.

The real problem with a Tesla in the winter is charging it. Say it's -20F in your garage. The battery has to get warmed up somewhat to charge it, and the heater for the battery uses around 2.5 to 3.0 kW.

Thing is, if you use a 120 VAC, 15A socket (standard wall socket), the car will draw a maximum of 12A (NEC code says one has to derate 20% on a constant, heavy load, and, yep, that's a Tesla), for 120VAC x 12A = 1440W. So, right there, that means trying to charge a cold Tesla in the dead of winter from a 120 VAC wall socket kinda ain't a-gonna work.

If you're in the burbs and:

• Your breaker box has a pair of extra slots so you can put in a duplex breaker
• Your breaker box has, best case, 60A of extra capacity (an electrician will run something called a "load analysis" to determine that this is, in fact, the case).
• Worst case, you've got 30 A of extra capacity

Then, you're in business. A duplex breaker gives you 240 VAC. (You'll see this in your breaker box. A double, ganged breaker is, in fact, a 240 VAC breaker. You'll usually have at least one for your HVAC system.) If you've got a 30A circuit, then you can get 240 VAC @ 24A, that's 5760W, and more than enough to both get the battery warmed up and get the car charged. (Once the battery's warm, the current to do the warming part decreases dramatically.)

If you can put in a 60A breaker, then the charging power is 240VAC * 48A = 11.52 kW, which is the max current a Tesla can do. And there won't be an issue with getting the battery warmed up, either.

Generally, putting a Wall Connector (that's a box that can handle 240 VAC, the necessary current, and has a cable on it that fits into the car) on your abode somewhere.If you've got a garage, in the garage is the best place to put this thing, although most of the Wall Connectors I've heard of are rated to handle being mounted on the outside of a house. The Tesla Wall Connector can be bought from places like Walmart as well as Tesla, and there's third parties that'll be happy to sell you a non-Tesla one, too. A Wall Connector is Not A Charger. The Charger is actually in the car. The Wall Connector tells the car how much voltage/current is available (has a small computer in there for that) and a Great Big Contactor that goes "clunk" when, and only when, it's safe to apply voltage to the car.

Here's why it's cheaper. The Wall Connector costs $475 (or a bit less from some third parties). A mobile connector is this cable-looking thing that, on one end, plugs into the car, and, on the other end, has one of a number of adapters that fits a 120/240/what-have-you socket, with lots of different ones for different current/shapes/what-have-you. See the chart over at Wikipedia. The Mobile Connector costs around $250.

So, say one puts in a 50A breaker, 50A wire, and an industrial grade, not from Home Depot, NEMA14-50 socket. The cheapies don't last. The ones that aren't cheap cost north of $200.

Then, on top of that, to meet code, you'll need a 240 VAC GFI breaker. That's another couple hundred bucks and, suddenly, the hard-wired Wall Connector is cheaper. And can do more current.

Total cost for the electrical installation, including Wall Connectors and what-all, is around $1000-$1500 for a simple installation. If the electrician has to bust through brick walls, then, natch, the price goes up. Many enlightened states (NJ is one, dunno about IL) will subsidize charging infrastructure, up to and including getting a higher-power drop from the power pole in the street. Check your state's web sites.

Other than that: Teslas are cool in the snow.

Oh, yeah: In the cold, a Supercharger can't be beat. The lowest power Supercharger delivers 75 kW; the older Superchargers out there do 150 kW; and the modern ones being installed these days do 250 kW.

But, generally, Superchargers are for trips. Mostly, the cost per kW-hr on a Supercharger is 3X the cost of home electricity. (I get $0.18/kW-hr at home; the local stations are around $0.48/kW-hr, cheaper at night.)

If you check the numbers, running a Tesla around the landscape is about 1/3 to 1/5 the cost of an ICE vehicle, but only if you're using residential rates.

Minor caveat: The "Performance" versions of the Teslas (M3P, MYP, MS Plaid, etc.) come with something close to racing tires which are graded for summer use. Those tires don't work well below 40F or so. (But that's true of any summer tire.) The non-P types (Standard Range and Long Range) come with All Seasons, which, mostly, will do a decent job in the snow. If you're the kind of person who likes snow tires, then knock yourself out, those have better traction in the snow. There are people with "P" cars that run Summers in the warm months and swap wheels to snows in the cold months. Me, I got LR cars over here, it's the mid-Atlantic, so I stick with All Seasons.

That 40% number you cited has nothing to do with Teslas. What it kind of sounds like is what happens to a standard lead-acid car battery, used for starting an internal combustion engine, in the cold. Hm. There were some non-Tesla BEV (Battery Electric Vehicles), I think the early Nissan Leafs were one, that didn't have built-in heating arrangements for the traction battery. So those cars might be an issue in the cold, but I've never owned one.

Hope this helps.

I honestly dont understand how a 40% loss in battery efficiency in winters is acceptable.

 

[Tronguy]

I honestly dont understand how a 40% loss in battery efficiency in winters is acceptable.

Um. The 40% is for what happens to the cranking amps in an olde-tyme lead-acid battery used to start an internal combustion engine in a non-TSLA vehicle.

Teslas don’t have that issue, not having the same chemistry, not needing an electric starter, and, finally, having actual thermal control for the battery they do use.

There’s maybe around a 90% drop in range in the cold to heat the cabin and keep the battery/electric motors at operating temperature. And that 90% number is comparable or better than what non-electric cars, including full time hybrids, do in the cold.

 

[Midnightsun]

I think the 40% was just worded oddly. A 40% drop in range will happen in very cold temps such as -25 to -30C, been there done that. Here are charts showing loss in freezing temps (0C, 32F), never mind the much greater impact in very cold temps especially if parked outside and not pre-conditioned.

 

[Tronguy]

Um. The 40% is for what happens to the cranking amps in an olde-tyme lead-acid battery used to start an internal combustion engine in a non-TSLA vehicle.

Teslas don’t have that issue, not having the same chemistry, not needing an electric starter, and, finally, having actual thermal control for the battery they do use.

There’s maybe around a 90% drop in range in the cold to heat the cabin and keep the battery/electric motors at operating temperature. And that 90% number is comparable or better than what non-electric cars, including full time hybrids, do in the cold.

Mis-stated that 90% number: Meant that the range was 90% of the warm weather range, or a 10% drop.

I stand corrected about the 40% drop in -25F to -30F weather; I haven't had the opportunity to drive around in sub-zero weather, as of yet. Down to zero, but not sub.

 

[KJSS4]

My sister came from out of town with kids and hubby to visit. We test drove a model y yesterday. It was pretty good. I was surprised my mom placed the order today. We are picking it up tomorrow. No I need to figure out my charging situation. But they were giving 7500 tax credit and 6 months free super charging so not bad.

 

[roberthotaling]

I just found this.

Tesla in cold weather – your questions, answered

Everything you need to know about driving a Tesla in cold weather, including tips on using onboard technology to maximize range and much more.

www.hertz.com

In a Tesla, look out for the snowflake icon – it means it’s too cold for full power and range.

Anyone ever seen the snowflake icon before?

Can you post a pic of the central vac power outlet? I share my dryer outlet with a Splitvolt box. I get 24amps which is about 22 mile per hour. It works perfectly. My electrician wanted 2400 to run the new line. This cost 850 total. If you can afford the new line, do it. But check out the outlet sharing boxes from Neovolt and Splitvolt as well.

 

[KJSS4]

Central vac garage

mvvg.blogspot.com

Not sure why there is tape.

 

[father_of_6]

It's settled then. Here is the solution:

 

[Tronguy]

Central vac garage

mvvg.blogspot.com

Not sure why there is tape.

Um. That does not appear to be a 240 VAC outlet. It appears to be a 120VAC, 20A (NEMA5-20) outlet. It’s a single socket, true, as benefits an appliance (major appliances like fridges, microwaves, garbage disposals, and dishwashers are all supposed to be on their one and only breaker, preferably with a single socket).

If you were thinking of getting 220 from this, unfortunately, you’ll have to think again.

Now, it’s possible, I guess, that some out of control tyro put a 240 circuit on a NEMA5-20 socket Not Rated For That, but that’s so far out of normal, or safe, that a building inspector would have had a heart attack on the spot had it been seen. So don’t think so.

 

[bookiepilot69]

First off: The motor and all in a Tesla work just fine at -40F. They test the vehicles up in Alaska.

Second: Modern Teslas come with a heat pump. This helps two ways:

1. Extracts heat from outside cold air to heat the cabin. (There's a lot of heat needed in the cabin so people got toasty toes.)
2. Extracts heat from outside cold air to heat the batteries/motors.

A Tesla will use waste heat (i.e., copper getting warm from the current; batteries getting warm from current flowing through them) to heat the batteries, motors, and to some extent, the cabin. There is an optimal temperature for all that stuff.

I used to have a 2018 M3 that had no heat pump. In warm weather, the car got 250 W-hr/mile; in cold weather, it got 350 W-hr/mile, that extra 100 W-hr/mile being used to heat the cabin with. The SO has a 2021 MY that, in warm weather, would get 280 W-hr/mile. In cold weather, as soon as one turned it on, it would do 350 W-hr/mile, then warm up, and the energy used would drop down to 290-300 W-hr/mile.

Yeah, and the seats are electrically heated, as is the steering wheel, with the intent that it's kind of cheaper to keep the cabin cooler and get warm from the seat.

The real problem with a Tesla in the winter is charging it. Say it's -20F in your garage. The battery has to get warmed up somewhat to charge it, and the heater for the battery uses around 2.5 to 3.0 kW.

Thing is, if you use a 120 VAC, 15A socket (standard wall socket), the car will draw a maximum of 12A (NEC code says one has to derate 20% on a constant, heavy load, and, yep, that's a Tesla), for 120VAC x 12A = 1440W. So, right there, that means trying to charge a cold Tesla in the dead of winter from a 120 VAC wall socket kinda ain't a-gonna work.

If you're in the burbs and:

• Your breaker box has a pair of extra slots so you can put in a duplex breaker
• Your breaker box has, best case, 60A of extra capacity (an electrician will run something called a "load analysis" to determine that this is, in fact, the case).
• Worst case, you've got 30 A of extra capacity

Then, you're in business. A duplex breaker gives you 240 VAC. (You'll see this in your breaker box. A double, ganged breaker is, in fact, a 240 VAC breaker. You'll usually have at least one for your HVAC system.) If you've got a 30A circuit, then you can get 240 VAC @ 24A, that's 5760W, and more than enough to both get the battery warmed up and get the car charged. (Once the battery's warm, the current to do the warming part decreases dramatically.)

If you can put in a 60A breaker, then the charging power is 240VAC * 48A = 11.52 kW, which is the max current a Tesla can do. And there won't be an issue with getting the battery warmed up, either.

Generally, putting a Wall Connector (that's a box that can handle 240 VAC, the necessary current, and has a cable on it that fits into the car) on your abode somewhere.If you've got a garage, in the garage is the best place to put this thing, although most of the Wall Connectors I've heard of are rated to handle being mounted on the outside of a house. The Tesla Wall Connector can be bought from places like Walmart as well as Tesla, and there's third parties that'll be happy to sell you a non-Tesla one, too. A Wall Connector is Not A Charger. The Charger is actually in the car. The Wall Connector tells the car how much voltage/current is available (has a small computer in there for that) and a Great Big Contactor that goes "clunk" when, and only when, it's safe to apply voltage to the car.

Here's why it's cheaper. The Wall Connector costs $475 (or a bit less from some third parties). A mobile connector is this cable-looking thing that, on one end, plugs into the car, and, on the other end, has one of a number of adapters that fits a 120/240/what-have-you socket, with lots of different ones for different current/shapes/what-have-you. See the chart over at Wikipedia. The Mobile Connector costs around $250.

So, say one puts in a 50A breaker, 50A wire, and an industrial grade, not from Home Depot, NEMA14-50 socket. The cheapies don't last. The ones that aren't cheap cost north of $200.

Then, on top of that, to meet code, you'll need a 240 VAC GFI breaker. That's another couple hundred bucks and, suddenly, the hard-wired Wall Connector is cheaper. And can do more current.

Total cost for the electrical installation, including Wall Connectors and what-all, is around $1000-$1500 for a simple installation. If the electrician has to bust through brick walls, then, natch, the price goes up. Many enlightened states (NJ is one, dunno about IL) will subsidize charging infrastructure, up to and including getting a higher-power drop from the power pole in the street. Check your state's web sites.

Other than that: Teslas are cool in the snow.

Oh, yeah: In the cold, a Supercharger can't be beat. The lowest power Supercharger delivers 75 kW; the older Superchargers out there do 150 kW; and the modern ones being installed these days do 250 kW.

But, generally, Superchargers are for trips. Mostly, the cost per kW-hr on a Supercharger is 3X the cost of home electricity. (I get $0.18/kW-hr at home; the local stations are around $0.48/kW-hr, cheaper at night.)

If you check the numbers, running a Tesla around the landscape is about 1/3 to 1/5 the cost of an ICE vehicle, but only if you're using residential rates.

Minor caveat: The "Performance" versions of the Teslas (M3P, MYP, MS Plaid, etc.) come with something close to racing tires which are graded for summer use. Those tires don't work well below 40F or so. (But that's true of any summer tire.) The non-P types (Standard Range and Long Range) come with All Seasons, which, mostly, will do a decent job in the snow. If you're the kind of person who likes snow tires, then knock yourself out, those have better traction in the snow. There are people with "P" cars that run Summers in the warm months and swap wheels to snows in the cold months. Me, I got LR cars over here, it's the mid-Atlantic, so I stick with All Seasons.

That 40% number you cited has nothing to do with Teslas. What it kind of sounds like is what happens to a standard lead-acid car battery, used for starting an internal combustion engine, in the cold. Hm. There were some non-Tesla BEV (Battery Electric Vehicles), I think the early Nissan Leafs were one, that didn't have built-in heating arrangements for the traction battery. So those cars might be an issue in the cold, but I've never owned one.

Hope this helps.

One of the best posts I've seen! Thanks for your contribution!

 

[father_of_6]

I recommend just getting a Tesla Wall Connector and hiring an electrician to run a new circuit to the garage. Now that you have the car, the sooner you get home charging the better.