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Combined Charging System (CCS) 2.0
- Thread starter widodh
- Start date
Tam
Well-Known Member
No need to wait for Europe: World’s Tallest Thermometer 350 kW High-Power station is being built at Baker, CA (between Barstow & Primm/Las Vegas Superchargers) and expected to be completed by June 2017.
https://www.evgo.com/about/news/evgo-breaks-ground-first-public-high-pow...
https://www.evgo.com/about/news/evgo-breaks-ground-first-public-high-pow...
This is a European concept with ratings based on 1000 volt battery EVs. Doubtful that this station today at Baker, CA, USA is offering anything other than what you would find in Sacramento or San Francisco at a 'fast charging DC EVSE'. So nothing new here wrt Teslas which are 400 volt EVs.
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Yeah... I noted that rendering didn't have charge cables the size of tree trunks, so there's no way they are handling ~860A.
I suspect that indeed these are at least 800V chargers (as have been suggested as pack configuration some European automakers are considering) in order to meet that power delivery spec.
I suspect that indeed these are at least 800V chargers (as have been suggested as pack configuration some European automakers are considering) in order to meet that power delivery spec.
Keep in mind that Tesla is a full member of CHARiN, the body that set the CCS standards. There is plenty of upward capability within teh standard but NA does nto any of it deployed because there aren't vehicles around that can use it, so far.
The only car I know of in the USA that has untapped potential for fast charging is the Kia Soul EV. It can allegedly use a 100kW charging station. I think that means 200 amps DC. So, this proposed station, which I think will be 1,000 Volts and up to 350 Amps on both CCS and CHAdeMO will definitely charge that car faster than other stations currently installed. However, it might only increase from 50kW to 80kW. The big question in my mind is what the ratings will be for the vehicle connectors on this station when it is first running in June 2017. I don't think the handles available at that time will be rated for 350 Amps.
Speculation is that the Bolt EV will also be able to take 200 amps DC on its CCS port.
Here's the response I received from the State of California concerning the charging rates on the Mojave Corridor (where Baker is). I had questioned the charging rates and security of the Chargepoint locations that won the bidding:
Good afternoon xxxxx and the xxxxx Family,
My name is Brian Fauble and I am the team leader for the “DC Fast Chargers for California’s Interregional Corridors” solicitation.
I was forwarded your email regarding your concern on the award to ChargePoint for the Mojave Express Corridor leading to Las Vegas.
The 24-kw stations that ChargePoint has previously installed was in partnership with BMW as their effort to install fast chargers on corridors. I assume that BMW chose to go with the smaller fast charging stations because their vehicles have the smaller capacity, but that is just an assumption.
For our solicitation we did not set a power requirement because not every site in California can handle the exact same power load capacities and we did not want to limit the applicants from choosing their sites.
For the I-15 corridor, ChargePoint under this award will be installing at least (2) DC fast charging stations with both CHAdeMO and SAE connectors with a minimum charging rate of 50-kW, (1) dual-port 7.7-kW level 2 charging station, (2) stub outs for future installations, security cameras and lighting at every site along the corridor.
ChargePoint also stated that they plan to install their newest DC fast charging station, once it completes its UL certification, in place of their 50-kW stations. These new DC fast chargers are capable of dispensing up to 125-kw per charging port.
Regarding the cost of charging at each station, we at the Energy Commission do not have any authority to regulate the cost of charging. Charging costs are determined by either the site host, the owner of the equipment, or the equipment provider that is managing the equipment.
I hope this information has eased your concern, and if you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Brian Fauble, Associate Energy Specialist
Zero-Emission Vehicle and Infrastructure Office
California Energy Commission
Good afternoon xxxxx and the xxxxx Family,
My name is Brian Fauble and I am the team leader for the “DC Fast Chargers for California’s Interregional Corridors” solicitation.
I was forwarded your email regarding your concern on the award to ChargePoint for the Mojave Express Corridor leading to Las Vegas.
The 24-kw stations that ChargePoint has previously installed was in partnership with BMW as their effort to install fast chargers on corridors. I assume that BMW chose to go with the smaller fast charging stations because their vehicles have the smaller capacity, but that is just an assumption.
For our solicitation we did not set a power requirement because not every site in California can handle the exact same power load capacities and we did not want to limit the applicants from choosing their sites.
For the I-15 corridor, ChargePoint under this award will be installing at least (2) DC fast charging stations with both CHAdeMO and SAE connectors with a minimum charging rate of 50-kW, (1) dual-port 7.7-kW level 2 charging station, (2) stub outs for future installations, security cameras and lighting at every site along the corridor.
ChargePoint also stated that they plan to install their newest DC fast charging station, once it completes its UL certification, in place of their 50-kW stations. These new DC fast chargers are capable of dispensing up to 125-kw per charging port.
Regarding the cost of charging at each station, we at the Energy Commission do not have any authority to regulate the cost of charging. Charging costs are determined by either the site host, the owner of the equipment, or the equipment provider that is managing the equipment.
I hope this information has eased your concern, and if you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Brian Fauble, Associate Energy Specialist
Zero-Emission Vehicle and Infrastructure Office
California Energy Commission
Right now for NA most of what we have is speculation. Almost all NA CCS are colocated with CHAdeMO, and usually about 50 amps or so with 300 or so volts, somtimes a bit higher. I think there will be little faster charging for either CCS or CHAdeMO until there are a few long range EV's around to use them. Even in Europe, other than Tesla Superchargers there is not much really fast DC. The Bolt could help change taht, but GM is pretty much hands off, so I think faster CCS probably is waiting for the Germans to arrive in force 2019/2020. Sometime around then we'll probably have some wildly complex CCS adapter for Tesla, although that one has some serious problems since CCS requires a/c for the network.
communications.
BTW, Tesla in Europe has Mennekes 2 connectors but use proprietary pins for Supercharging.
Some corrections to your post. In North America, the vast majority of non-Tesla DC Fast chargers fall into two groups.
Group 1. 25kW single standard chargers. Examples - BMW i Fast Charger (SAE/CCS only), same as ChargePoint Express 100. Same unit, made in France by ICS and ~60 amps DC max. Similar units by Fuji for CHAdeMO only were deployed in small numbers. A 2014 CEC grant recently resulted in CHAdeMO-only units (unknown manufacturer) being installed on I-5 and CA-99 with similar specs.
Group 2. 50kW single or dual standard chargers. Major manufacturers are ABB, BTC, Nissan (DBT?), Efacec, and Signet. These chargers can all deliver between 100 amps and 125 amps at up to 500 VDC. Nissan is CHAdeMO only but the others are all dual-standard CHAdeMO and SAE/CCS. There were some (<5 units) ABB SAE-only chargers installed by NRG at the very beginning of the SAE deployment, but I think they've all been replaced with dual-standard chargers. Likewise, in places like Georgia some BTC chargers were installed without the SAE cable, but I believe these have been added since the initial deployments.
Personally, I don't think a Tesla CCS adapter will be any more difficult overall than the CHAdeMO adapter. They both have to be smart adapters, not just dumb pass-through units like the TSL-02 J1772 adapter.
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I was trying to avoid too much detail. Still at the moment NA has more paired CCS/CHAdeMO and Nissan CHAdeMO than any others.
As for the complexity of the CCS adapter vs CHAdeMO, we need not debate it. Just look up the CCS standard on CHARiN News: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
When you do you'll see that the network communication protocols of CCS are totally different than are those of CHAdeMO and Tesla Supercharger. Because that additional signal does all the authorization process it is a completely distinct adaptation required, which is not required fro CHAdeMO. It is certainly feasible, but it will be even more expensive than CHAdeMO. Except for Europe, why bother?
Those are just the external branding. EVgo and Chargepoint are not charging equipment manufacturers.
I don't think any of the EVgo chargers can deliver more than 50kW. The ABB 125 amp units have a ceiling of 50kW, but it doesn't really matter since there are no cars that are significantly above 400 VDC. Similarly, the Efacec units can output 120 amps, but have a 45kW continuous rating.
I'm pretty sure there is no EVgo DC station in Baker yet -- that's just a computer rendering of what it will look like.
The new CCS spec is for 350A and chargers implementing the full 350A of power will be using water-cooled cables and plugs. Tesla has recently experimented with water-cooled cables that can handle at least 350A are they were actually thinner and easier to handle than the regular non-cooled Supercharger cables.
Why is that? As far as I can tell, suppliers like Phoenix Contact already have prototype water-cooled 350A CCS plugs and are very likely to be ready for volume production next year.
I've never seen a CHAdeMO station with less than 62A and most seem to be 100A or 125A. All of them are capable of over 400V -- usually 450V or 500V.
VW has already announced their intention to submit plans in February, 2017 that call for 200 "stations" (which seems to mean "plazas" with multiple chargers). These would be built starting soon after their plan approval by April and the term of that 2.5 year plan would end in late 2019. The first German BEVs, a VW group Audi, is expected in 2018.
I believe the signaling for CCS is carried on pins that are already the same between J1772 and Tesla's NA plug. The circuits and chips that support CCS signaling over these pins is already widely available and straightforward to implement. The only real issue is the higher-level messaging protocol translation between the messages exchanged during Supercharging and the messages exchanged during CCS charging.
It would not surprise me if Tesla built CCS signaling hardware support into the Model 3 and other future cars and just created a cheap CCS adapter that was a straight-through pin-for-pin physical adapter like the J1772 adapter.
Hence my point that the voltage on that 350KW station would have to be in the 1000V range... 350A plugs are doable. But 860A plugs, even if fed by liquid cooled cables would be a challenge... contact size in the plug housing, conductors in the car, etc...
I believe EVgo has some 100A chargers as well as 125A. Only 125A stations can, at least theoretically, do 62.5 kW at their rated 500V maximum. Stations that support 125A are sloppily called 50 kW because most actual vehicles charge at around 400V.
The two ChargePoint DC stations support 62A and 125A.
CCS is not doing 860A plugs so forget that. They are doing 350A although the spec might have some wiggle room to allow a little higher for short durations.
When VW says the Mission E sports car will be an 800V system and charge at 350 kW they really mean 800V x 350A which is 280 kW but it will be difficult to get high energy density batteries to charge that fast with good cycle lifetimes so the actual Mission E charging rate might really be closer to 170 - 200 kW.
Big battery cars with 100-130 kWh packs built around 400V powertrains will be limited to around 140 kW by the 350A limit.
Interestingly, Efacec already has a high voltage CCS charger solution on their web site. Each cabinet can do 175A at up to 920VDC. The cabinets can be ganged together to deliver more total current. They show two cabinets for 350A combined and connected to the same (looking) remote pedestal that they use with the QC45 "50kW" fast charger.
Efacec Electric Mobility | EV High Power
Efacec Electric Mobility | EV High Power
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