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Let me clarify this for you:
We (I am a physician) are using it NOT because there is evidence it works. We are using it because in most people it is not going to do harm, IF WE MONITOR THEM. You don't see outpatient docs prescribing this medication much, simply because it has heart complications. You DO SEE inpatient docs prescribing this because . . . the patient is on cardiac monitoring if admitted to the hospital.

There is a HUGE different between evidence of efficacy (which there is little of) and evidence of non-harm (which there is adequate evidence of but ONLY if monitored inpatient).

The other issue that no one seems to be considering is what you might think of as the 'biological context' or 'contingencies' on efficacy. People tend to think (somewhat concretely) that a medicine either helps in a condition or it doesn't. Would that it were that simple! A medicine that is moderately helpful at an early milder stage of an infectious/inflammatory process may have no efficacy at all once people head into sepsis, pneumonia, and the destructive positive feedback loops of runaway inflammation.

I think there's some albeit modest reason to believe that chloroquine may help a subset of patients, But I'd say the evidence is pretty unimpressive once patients are in the ICU and in respiratory failure - indeed, a definitive treatment may be impossible to find for that group, if the supposition of DAMP-driven positive feedback running away in those patients is true - the key would instead be to keep them out of that territory in the first place.

But there is just still so much about COVID-19 and Rx that we just don't know and absent good data and I think you're right to point out that we can't have a rush to judgment on this. On the other hand, I can also understand why people might want this under the umbrella of doing something is better than doing nothing. I suppose that's mostly true . . . most of the time, as long as somebody doesn't have as arrhythmia or some other vulnerability/contraindication to chloroquine. And last but not least Chloroquine may work In combination with other treatments but perhaps be not so effective by itself. Lots of questions, still a shortage of data, but with the urgency of the questions potentially overwhelming what we can confidently know or judge based on good scientific evidence.
 
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If 25% is an upper bound for those infected who remain without symptoms enough not to be ever tested in SK, it means that the number of total cases is 75% of the number of infected, so a ratio of 4 to 3. That means IFR would be 3/4 of the CFR of 2%, which is 1.5%.

There are clearly 2 "camps" now. One thinks the IFR is very low and a lot more than we know are infected.

Michael Mina on Twitter

Could the US have >2 million #COVID19 cases by now?
I'll be astounded if not! We simply don't test.
The ratio of who gets a test vs who should, likely worse than 1 in 10.
So given 220K cases reported ->
>2.2 million COVID cases in US already?
>4 million? Perhaps...

Last note - and *speculative* – given very limited testing and relatively short windows of time to capture virus in a nasal swab, I really won't be surprised if even 50x more people have acquired the virus than cases confirmed If so ~11 million in US could have acquired #COVID19

And those who think IFR is actually > 1% and not that many are infected. I'm using the following reply to the above tweet by a Harvard epidemiologist because it was retweeted by Marc Lipsitch. I think this is the mainstream epidemiologist view.

Pierre Andurand on Twitter

We have way enough data to know that it is not 0.1%, but more than 1%... already 0.024% of both the Spanish population and Italian population died from it officially, with reports that death rates are actually 3-4 times higher in many places.​

Regions in Italy and Spain have more than 1% of their population that died from it. SKorea with extensive testing and contact tracing have a 1.7% CFR. It obviously cannot be a 0.1% IFR. Way enough evidence now​
 
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Placebos work. If it makes patients feel better and the risks are low when being monitored by a doctor, why not?

All MDs not using it need to take it up with the ethics board for evaluation if the study from NYC proved the drug works. While these MDs are having a field day poking holes in the study standing on their high horse, people died who could have been saved.
 
All MDs not using it need to take it up with the ethics board for evaluation if the study from NYC proved the drug works.
That makes little sense to me. Should those using it be taken to the ethics board if it's proven that it's not effective? After all, unnecessary treatment goes against the ethical code, doesn't it?
 
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There are clearly 2 "camps" now. One thinks the IFR is very low and a lot more than we know are infected.

Michael Mina on Twitter

Could the US have >2 million #COVID19 cases by now?
I'll be astounded if not! We simply don't test.
The ratio of who gets a test vs who should, likely worse than 1 in 10.
So given 220K cases reported ->
>2.2 million COVID cases in US already?
>4 million? Perhaps...​

And those who think IFR is actually > 1% and not that many are infected. I'm using the following reply to the above tweet by a Harvard epidemiologist because it was retweeted by Marc Lipsitch. I think this is the mainstream epidemiologist view.

Pierre Andurand on Twitter

We have way enough data to know that it is not 0.1%, but more than 1%... already 0.024% of both the Spanish population and Italian population died from it officially, with reports that death rates are actually 3-4 times higher in many places.​

Regions in Italy and Spain have more than 1% of their population that died from it. SKorea with extensive testing and contact tracing have a 1.7% CFR. It obviously cannot be a 0.1% IFR. Way enough evidence now​

Battle lines being drawn ....

The whole thread is pretty interesting, including the two tweets below.

First one states the obvious.

Second one might cause some corona(ries) here.;)

Also, a clarification. Both Mina and Lipsitch are Harvard epidemiologists. The guy responding to Mina (Pierre Andurand) is in finance.

COVID_antibodytest_0400420.png
COVID_11 million_040420.png
 
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No because they were mislead by preliminary studies and the FDA when there are no other alternatives. They are fully covered.
Seems to me this would be impossible. You'd open up ethics investigations for every drug not prescribed, even on questionable evidence. Effectively, nearly every treatment decision by a physician would fall into this category.
 
Hmm ...

Dan weinberger on Twitter

Unexplained increase in ILI be unexplained increase in P&I deaths across states. Spike in mortality is slightly delayed and slower than spike in ILI in many states , as expected
Using ExcessILI with US P&I mortality data

There is clearly a spike in deaths in FL (just like in NYC) - but FL doesn't share Influenza like illnesses data.

unnamed-chunk-9-1.png
 
Wait I'm sorry, why are you not prescribing Claritin, Omeprazole, plavix, hundreds of other meds that show no evidence of it working but also do little harm?

Why are you picking hydroxychloroquine? That seems like a random drug to pick in which it's no better than the other hundreds of drugs that do no harm too right? Hey as a bonus you don't even need to monitor the pt with 90% of the drugs out there..why not pick those?
It was picked because it's used to treat autoimmune disorders. Loratadine, Omeprazole, and so on aren't used to treat any autoimmune disorders AFAIK. Other drugs used to treat autoimmune disorders, like Methotrexate, are I think off the table because some of the side effects affect the lungs.
 
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There are clearly 2 "camps" now. One thinks the IFR is very low and a lot more than we know are infected.

Michael Mina on Twitter

Could the US have >2 million #COVID19 cases by now?
I'll be astounded if not! We simply don't test.
The ratio of who gets a test vs who should, likely worse than 1 in 10.
So given 220K cases reported ->
>2.2 million COVID cases in US already?
>4 million? Perhaps...

Last note - and *speculative* – given very limited testing and relatively short windows of time to capture virus in a nasal swab, I really won't be surprised if even 50x more people have acquired the virus than cases confirmed If so ~11 million in US could have acquired #COVID19

And those who think IFR is actually > 1% and not that many are infected. I'm using the following reply to the above tweet by a Harvard epidemiologist because it was retweeted by Marc Lipsitch. I think this is the mainstream epidemiologist view.

Pierre Andurand on Twitter

We have way enough data to know that it is not 0.1%, but more than 1%... already 0.024% of both the Spanish population and Italian population died from it officially, with reports that death rates are actually 3-4 times higher in many places.​

Regions in Italy and Spain have more than 1% of their population that died from it. SKorea with extensive testing and contact tracing have a 1.7% CFR. It obviously cannot be a 0.1% IFR. Way enough evidence now​

That's a good articulation of the two camps of thought on this issue, but I think it may be in the end a seductive but perhaps ultimately specious achievement to chase down a single number as though that number means a great deal. And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that that final case fatality rate number varies enormously across societies even when you remove the possibility of cooked data from motivated underreporting, along with all the well-documented uncertainties in determining case fatality numbers at the early end of a pandemic. And I'll tell you why any single number for CFR or IFR is misleading – it may be that there is simply enormous differential vulnerability and what your final case fatality number ends up being in a given population depends on the many and disparate risk variables expressed in that population.

Even at the very incomplete state of our science on this question, I can put many highly plausible and several proven relevant risk variables on the table right now:

1) Demographics of age In your population, and more specifically, the state of the adaptive immune system. See previous posts here and here on this and the relevant concept of 'inflammaging' as a potent mortality risk variable. In aging the innate immune system is disinhibited to partially compensate for declining adaptive immunity.
2) So-called age-related comorbid illnesses which as I have already argued are proxies for or at least express some of the degree of #1 penetrance. Classically of course type II diabetes, coronary artery disease, COPD, recent cancers, and I suspect Alzheimer's disease will prove to be huge although that's not been proven, and there is no data on that.
3) Degree of moderate or worse smoking (or perhaps vaping?) in your demographic.
4) Degree of antibiotic resistance in your demographic – and this, #1 and #3 may explain why Italy has been devastated, As Italians reportedly have relatively high levels of antibiotic resistance presumably from antibiotic overprescription. This may of course index also possible problems with the Demographic microbiome which we now appreciate as a front-line in the immune system. One would think that the Italian diet would mitigate this but perhaps not.
5) Other protective lifestyle variables particularly degree of regular aerobic exercise and presence or absence of sleep disorders as both of these affect immunocompetence directly and potently.
6) Degree of social support versus social stress – people are surprised to hear that immunocompetence is modulated by this but it is. Chronic upregulation of the stress axis subjects us to a daily bath of corticosteroids and upregulation of pro-inflammatory cytokines. See previous discussion on dangers of upregulated innate immunity when facing novel pathogens.
7) The role of gender with significant increased vulnerability in males to bad outcome in respiratory infection.
8) Likely to be dozens of unmapped polymorphisms affecting vulnerability, including ACE2 Polymorphisms (Receptor by which Covid 19 Virus gains entry In the cells).
9) degree to which there is partial recognition by adaptive immune system of this coronavirus by virtue of prior exposure to one of its relatives. This is totally unmapped but it perhaps in combination with other risk reducing issues may explain why some people are completely asymptomatic.

What is clear is that a subset of the population is extremely vulnerable. And as I indicated before, whether that ultimate case lethality is under 1%, if we bust our healthcare capacity, our case lethality becomes the percentage of folks that need ICU level care that can't be cared for in ICUs on respiratory support. And that's going to be way more than 1%. Possibly 5%. And that's a terrifying number.
 
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I posted this upthread, and have continued distributions of grants from my personal foundation. I definitely suggest doing the same if you can. Some nonprofits can take advantage of the small business provisions in the package, but not all. And they still struggle with volunteer staff and distribution of services. Now is the time to front load every donation you can.
Oh, I am doing my part. Don't worry. I am a mid-scale rental owner, and I defer rent payments and plan to waive where is applicable for my tenants who are out of work due to corona
 
There are plenty of preliminary studies that say it doesn't work...

Apparently you missed the context. If the NYC studies showed that it worked, then it's an uphill battle for you vs the lawyers when someone's mother died in the hand of a MD who was too skeptical to try experimental treatments with evidence out there that it did work from preliminary studies.

So it's extremely ballsy to play this game being in your high horse. The lawyers will have a field day. If NYC proved the drug doesn't work, welp..everyone tried their best.
 
Apparently you missed the context. If the NYC studies showed that it worked, then it's an uphill battle for you vs the lawyers when someone's mother died in the hand of a MD who was too skeptical to try experimental treatments with evidence out there that it did work from preliminary studies.

So it's extremely ballsy to play this game being in your high horse. The lawyers will have a field day. If NYC proved the drug doesn't work, welp..everyone tried their best.
Sorry, I may have missed something. Is there a new study from NYC out?
 
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And those who think IFR is actually > 1% and not that many are infected. I'm using the following reply to the above tweet by a Harvard epidemiologist because it was retweeted by Marc Lipsitch. I think this is the mainstream epidemiologist view.

Second one might cause some corona(ries) here.;)

I think the IFR is around 1%, and I believe we currently have about 2-3 million infected (cumulative), as I've mentioned above. Might be higher than 3 million now, since it has been a couple days since updating my numbers.

I think 11 million (cumulative) is likely on the high side (though I do think we'll get there shortly), but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the real number now were 5 million in the United States.

So it was "comforting" to see this thread from actual epidemiologists. Again, 11 million seems a bit high right now, but 10-20 million infections when all is done with this first wave seems entirely reasonable, and would correspond well with the 100k-200k deaths that are coming shortly.

This, of course, is what flattening the curve is all about. I'd much rather be talking about limiting infections to 100k rather than 200k, instead of limiting infections to 10 million instead of 20 million, but here we are...just needed to act 25 days earlier or so, and we'd be discussing the former scenario - and we'd be nearly "done" with mitigation...

I do take some issue with this tweet:
Michael Mina on Twitter

"To be clear - I hope that there have been 5 million or more cases in the US by now. This would suggest a lower infection mortality, higher population immunity, and would start to paint a clearer path how to get society back functioning."

It seems he's forgetting about the death delay ("lower infection mortality???" - seems like it is on track for 1% if there are currently 3 million cumulative cases - we're going to have those 30k deaths in about a week and a half...!) , and he is overstating the impact of population immunity for that small a number of infections.
 
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Here is the palette I can choose from.
Which 5 colors work best for you ? Please ID by (x,y) coordinates, so the bottom left would be (1,1) and the top left (1,8)

View attachment 529256
Here is the palette I can choose from.
Which 5 colors work best for you ? Please ID by (x,y) coordinates, so the bottom left would be (1,1) and the top left (1,8)

View attachment 529256
1,8
2,7
4,7
5,7
8,7
Going for (to my biased view) contrast And “brightness” , based upon what I see
Too cheap to get EnChromas up to now. (Bandpass filters)