Coronavirus

[wdolson]

It’s been so short time since COVID-19 actually started, that I’m curious whether an actual scientific study has yet been conducted (with volunteers, for example, not with just test tubes), about the actual contagiousness and seriouness of COVID-19, or is it all still just a bunch of guesswork and anecdotal (might not actually be causal, just correlated) evidence and rumors from all over the place? I mean rigorious testing in various circumstances:

• person-to-person, open air at various distances (with and without different levels of wind), with and without mask, different kinds of masks, with coffing, without coffing or sneezing
  
• person-to-person, cubicle, with and without mask, different kinds of masks, with coffing, without coffing or sneezing
  
• person-to-person, inhouse in typical shop or restaurant setting, with and without mask, different kinds of masks, with coffing, without coffing or sneezing
  
• person-to-person, where-have-you, with and without mask, different kinds of masks, with coffing, without coffing or sneezing
  
• contracting from touching contaminated PPE
  
• contracting by hands from various sources, public places (buttons, handles, plastic, other materials, with or/without sunshine, after various intervals)

And furthermore, the effect of covid on people with different backgrounds:

• healthy, different age groups, different treatment protocols, including analysis of any residual long-lasting effects per group
  
• different pre-existing conditions, different age groups, different treatment protocols, including analysis of any residual long-lasting effects per group

It seems that simply backtracing and trying to deduce the above from non-pre-coordinated random cases leads to a whole lot of innuendo. If all the above was done in a pre-coordinated (and reproducible; you could even re-(don't)-try-it-at-home, if you wanted) way, even Foxnews audience could not deny it.

It is illegal in most countries to deliberately expose another human being to an infectious disease. The few countries that may do it don't admit it. Within the limits of medical ethics, the entire world's medical establishment is focusing all their energy on figuring out how COVID works and how it can be defeated.

This is one of the most bizarre infectious diseases medicine has ever encountered. Doctors who were on the front lines of the ebola outbreak a decade ago have said that COVID scares them far more than ebola.

 

[wdolson]

yeah, well....

OMAR.

that's all.

And that unknown actor at the time names Idris Elba.

 

[linux-works]

It is illegal in most countries to deliberately expose another human being to an infectious disease.

just to clarify, does that include trumpers?

they said they want to DieForTheDow(tm). sounds like you have a yuuuuge pool of volunteers.

 

[Doggydogworld]

No worries. I get meters per second; kW/s knocks me off my rocker.

kW/s is used in electricity grid engineering. It describes how fast demand rises during a spike, for example, or how fast supply drops offline when a power station trips or transmission line is cut. I came across it when reading about that huge blackout in South Australia that people blamed on wind farms.

 

[wdolson]

just to clarify, does that include trumpers?

they said they want to DieForTheDow(tm). sounds like you have a yuuuuge pool of volunteers.

It is ethical to do case tracing on people who got sick due to their own stupidity.

 

[30seconds]

Is this the right place to look at the data on spread in children and discuss school re-openings?

Or did I already miss it?

 

[wdolson]

Is this the right place to look at the data on spread in children and discuss school re-openings?

Or did I already miss it?

There was some discussion about 2 pages back (around page 947). Some people will probably weigh in with some more thoughts soon. Though I think the focus was more on school opening and not the spread in children.

 

[Tiger]

I was hoping my question would catch your eye, you seem to be very knowledgeable. I'm honestly and curiously asking. not trolling or bs etc. maybe speculating yes.

You clearly don't do science.

Correct. I'm just an engineer, and ethics is rarely a factor when solving problems in my lane of expertise. Think wall street. A thought that came into my mind is, that similar to war, (voluntary) soliders are sent to die (at least proportionally, not necessarily all of them), a similar service/occupation could apply to pandemics.

But we have plenty of information proving that COVID is highly contagious, such that we don't need more, unless of course, you believe that the virus is just being hyped and it's all a big hoax - just a big lie to prevent our Great President from being re elected. If you think there's a chance of that, we have bigger problems here than explaining medical ethics.

Your president is not a factor either, where I live. However, I think a study is needed to explain why the disease is rampant in some places more than others, though I would assume that most people act more or less responsibly (at least comparably). For example, USA and Asia are the only places where masks are stronglty advocated (you can check this from webcams around the world), are they only useful after a certain threshold of cases per capita?

Given the enormous evidence that COVID-19 spreads quickly and easily when people are exposed to someone actively infected but not socially distanced or wearing masks,

As an engineer, I would be interested in details such as at what distance do you really need a mask. Do you benefit from a mask when jogging? When shopping? Shopping mall? What are the tipping points of statistically significant difference. I simply would be curious to know those things, I'm not advocating aginst using them as precautionary measures regardless of their exact effectiveness. It's more about "where the rubber meets the road", or in this case, where the protection of using the precaution exceeds the shame of wearing the mask.

We are witnessing the results. How do think it's going in those states, that all opened up and operated from the Trump playbook, that this thing is A) no big deal; B) not that contagious. How is it going in all those states in your opinion??

That's a more binary discussion, whether it's going very well or quite badly in these areas. I don't have open questions there.

As for the second set of questions, there is a lot of data and a growing body of information on that already. Just look at it with your eyes open.

It's quite frustrating, when you are researching for a product on (for example) Amazon, and someone says in the review "This product is crap, while there are perfectly working alternatives out there." without caring to tip on the alternatives. Would you bother to summarize, in your eyes, the answer for the second set of questions (or parts of it)? All data I have found is bundled in such a way that those particular vectors are not tanglible.

Are you volunteering?

Hell no I wouldn't volunteer to be a cannon fodder either. But I don't believe finding volunteers would be a problem, it would be a honorable service to the mankind.

 

[cwerdna]

Oklahoma's governor says he has tested positive for COVID-19
Michigan man killed by police after stabbing man in mask argument, police say
Middleton coffee shop still flouting mask order, calls police on public health inspectors

Another anti-mask official hospitalized with covid-19. He’s in critical condition. From BGR today:

Florida county commissioner who opposed mask-wearing is now in critical condition with the coronavirus

2 St. Johns County commissioners again reject calls for mask mandate - this is the same county as the above. SMH

 

[cwerdna]

Emergency Psychotic Moron Alert

Chuck Woolery's Twitter feed gets today's Psychotic Moron alert. These are reserved for exceptionally outrageous instances of refractory idiocy. Note heavy reliance on projection of a virtually non-stop continuous pathological lying by current Administration, a universal feature of severe narcissistic and sociopathic character Dynamics. Good job Chuck! And yes the answer to the question on everyone's mind, can Chuck be treated with Moron Spray, no he has been one of our most refractory patients. 100% popcorn brain. Hopeless.

View attachment 564152

And, the tweet's still up: https://twitter.com/chuckwoolery/status/1282499347117215745?s=20.

And now his account's gone. I checked a few minutes ago.

Did Chuck Woolery Say His Son Tested Positive for COVID-19?
Chuck Woolery’s Twitter Account Disappears After Son Gets Coronavirus – Deadline

 

[SageBrush]

But I don't believe finding volunteers would be a problem, it would be a honorable service to the mankind.

As in, an honorable service for you. What makes you so deserving ?

 

[RobStark]

Walmart Now Requires All Shoppers To Wear Pants

U.S.—In a move that's being called "unprecedented tyranny," Walmart is now requiring all shoppers to wear pants in their stores.


Americans everywhere slammed Walmart for the move, saying it amounted to an infringement on our constitutional rights.

"I thought this was America," said one man as a greeter asked him to please put on some sweatpants or something before coming into the store. "It is my constitutional right to go into Walmart and shop for random stuff at 3 a.m. wearing nothing but some boxers and a giant Tweety Bird T-shirt I got in the '80s."

"Look, we don't think this is too much to ask," said a Walmart spokesperson. "Just throw on some sweats, pajama bottoms, whatever. This is for the health and mental safety of our employees. And for the love of God, take a shower once in a while, you know?"

Shirts will remain optional.

 

[Tiger]

As in, an honorable service for you. What makes you so deserving?

No need to get personal. Same goes for military, or medical staff, teachers, police, firemen, spacemen, first aid, ... different people choose different occupations in different situations.

 

[Dr. J]

Is this the right place to look at the data on spread in children and discuss school re-openings?

Or did I already miss it?

Israel is a cautionary tale.

Israelis Fear Schools Reopened Too Soon as Covid-19 Cases Climb

Outbreaks in schools had infected at least 1,335 students and 691 staff by Monday since the reopening in early May

Epidemiological surveys by Israel’s health ministry showed that after Israel opened its entire school system without restrictions on May 17, a spike in infections occurred among the country’s youth that later spread to the general population. Government figures also showed that in the month of June schools were the second-highest known place of infection outside people’s own communities.

Israeli Data Show School Openings Were a Disaster That Wiped Out Lockdown Gains

The assessment of Israel’s trajectory has direct bearing on the heated debate underway in the United States between President Donald Trump, who is demanding a nationwide reopening of schools for what appear to be largely political reasons, and health authorities who caution it could put the wider population at risk.

 

[SageBrush]

No need to get personal. Same goes for military, or medical staff, teachers, police, firemen, spacemen, first aid, ... different people choose different occupations in different situations.

emphasis mine

 

[dfwatt]

I was hoping my question would catch your eye, you seem to be very knowledgeable. I'm honestly and curiously asking. not trolling or bs etc. maybe speculating yes.



Correct. I'm just an engineer, and ethics is rarely a factor when solving problems in my lane of expertise. Think wall street. A thought that came into my mind is, that similar to war, (voluntary) soliders are sent to die (at least proportionally, not necessarily all of them), a similar service/occupation could apply to pandemics.



Your president is not a factor either, where I live. However, I think a study is needed to explain why the disease is rampant in some places more than others, though I would assume that most people act more or less responsibly (at least comparably). For example, USA and Asia are the only places where masks are stronglty advocated (you can check this from webcams around the world), are they only useful after a certain threshold of cases per capita?



As an engineer, I would be interested in details such as at what distance do you really need a mask. Do you benefit from a mask when jogging? When shopping? Shopping mall? What are the tipping points of statistically significant difference. I simply would be curious to know those things, I'm not advocating aginst using them as precautionary measures regardless of their exact effectiveness. It's more about "where the rubber meets the road", or in this case, where the protection of using the precaution exceeds the shame of wearing the mask.



That's a more binary discussion, whether it's going very well or quite badly in these areas. I don't have open questions there.



It's quite frustrating, when you are researching for a product on (for example) Amazon, and someone says in the review "This product is crap, while there are perfectly working alternatives out there." without caring to tip on the alternatives. Would you bother to summarize, in your eyes, the answer for the second set of questions (or parts of it)? All data I have found is bundled in such a way that those particular vectors are not tanglible.



Hell no I wouldn't volunteer to be a cannon fodder either. But I don't believe finding volunteers would be a problem, it would be a honorable service to the mankind.

The idea that volunteering to be infected with a serious pathogen where there is a non-trivial but small risk of death, along with a larger risk of hospitalization and possible long-term health effects would be an honorable service to mankind suggests that you are really disconnected from reality. You unfortunately confirm that impression when you talk about "the shame of wearing a mask." The shame actually is in people who simply refuse to absorb the available epidemiology and science, like yourself, and continue to insist that they need more proof that this is any kind of real problem.

 

[dfwatt]

Israel is a cautionary tale.

Israelis Fear Schools Reopened Too Soon as Covid-19 Cases Climb

Outbreaks in schools had infected at least 1,335 students and 691 staff by Monday since the reopening in early May

Epidemiological surveys by Israel’s health ministry showed that after Israel opened its entire school system without restrictions on May 17, a spike in infections occurred among the country’s youth that later spread to the general population. Government figures also showed that in the month of June schools were the second-highest known place of infection outside people’s own communities.

Israeli Data Show School Openings Were a Disaster That Wiped Out Lockdown Gains

The assessment of Israel’s trajectory has direct bearing on the heated debate underway in the United States between President Donald Trump, who is demanding a nationwide reopening of schools for what appear to be largely political reasons, and health authorities who caution it could put the wider population at risk.

Was This brilliant plan the idea of the Israeli Trump?

 

[NikolaACDC]

Georgia governor voids local mask orders

"On Wednesday, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) banned cities and counties from ordering residents to wear masks in public, voiding orders in at least 15 localities."
--------------
Because as everybody knows by now wearing masks makes no difference

Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 139 clients. Face masks may be why. | Live Science
CDC director: How the U.S. could get coronavirus under control in weeks

 

[SageBrush]

Was This brilliant plan the idea of the Israeli Trump?

Good outcome: his idea and leadership
Bad outcome: everybody else's fault, and shame on them for trying to blame him.

Sound familiar ?

 

[SageBrush]

Georgia governor voids local mask orders

"On Wednesday, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) banned cities and counties from ordering residents to wear masks in public, voiding orders in at least 15 localities."
--------------
Because as everybody knows by now wearing masks makes no difference

Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 139 clients. Face masks may be why. | Live Science
CDC director: How the U.S. could get coronavirus under control in weeks

Between religion, poor health, poor medical infrastructure and trumpism the Southern states are Foobar-ed. Any 2 of 4 would be a difficult situation but they go for the worse possible. It was not difficult to anticipate