Coronavirus

[PeterJA]

Anyone taking Zinc?

I get zinc from my whole-food plant-based diet (good zinc sources are legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds), but if you eat much processed food, a zinc supplement is better than nothing. It is part of several prevention protocols I've seen.

...on March 11, the Japanese published an intravenous vitamin C protocol, and released an educational video explaining the use of high-dose oral vitamin C (1000 mg 3x daily to bowel tolerance) along with other essential nutrients to protect against COVID-19. [32] Other important nutrients to prevent infection were included: vitamin D (2000-5000 IU/d), zinc (20 mg/d), selenium (100mcg/d), and magnesium (400 mg/d, in malate, citrate, or chloride form).

Vitamin C and Coronavirus: Not a Vaccine; Just a Humble Cure​

 

[dhanson865]

Take a close look at that deaths per million people section and consider if those higher rates were where the US might end up

600 deaths per million near the top would put the US deaths at 196,920.
500 deaths per million above Italy would put the the US deaths at 164,100
420 deaths per million just below the UK would put the US deaths at 137,844
350 deaths per million just below France would put the US deaths at 114,870
300 deaths per million just above the Netherlands would put the US deaths at 98,460

The US is already Number 1 on gross cases and deaths, and number 3 in per capita cases. If deaths in the US go above 160,000 or so we'll be top 3 for per capita deaths also.

 

[TespaceX]

Yeaaa....I have a feeling the re-openings will take longer than many people would like, or places will soon close again after re-opening.

South Beach Park Closes Less Than a Week After Reopening Due to Face Mask Violations

Video surfaces of park ranger pushed into Lake Austin, suspect arrested

 

[TEG]

Pharmacological perspective: glycyrrhizin may be an efficacious therapeutic agent for COVID-19

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I get zinc from my whole-food plant-based diet (good zinc sources are legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds), but if you eat much processed food, a zinc supplement is better than nothing. It is part of several prevention protocols I've seen.

...on March 11, the Japanese published an intravenous vitamin C protocol, and released an educational video explaining the use of high-dose oral vitamin C (1000 mg 3x daily to bowel tolerance) along with other essential nutrients to protect against COVID-19. [32] Other important nutrients to prevent infection were included: vitamin D (2000-5000 IU/d), zinc (20 mg/d), selenium (100mcg/d), and magnesium (400 mg/d, in malate, citrate, or chloride form).

Vitamin C and Coronavirus: Not a Vaccine; Just a Humble Cure​

I don't know. Guess I'd have to see the results of an RCT. Sorry if I missed it in the wall of text.

For the doctors out there, isn't intravenous vitamin C something that is available as a treatment for various illnesses already? Isn't it something hospitals would have on hand. And if so, wouldn't it be in use in a bunch of hospitals in the US already (when appropriate)?

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the things you suggest provide some help to reduce mortality around the margins (which would be good), but I think it's important to distinguish that it's probably not a miracle cure. But honestly, you're posting so much stuff it's hard to keep track - you're saying there's a lot of stuff that can help, but it's hard for me to nail down anything that's a definitive solution.

 

[dhanson865]

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If you want to play with some models and develop some intuition about how pandemics work, and have some time to kill:

https://infectiousmatter.com/

 

[PeterJA]

I don't know. Guess I'd have to see the results of an RCT. Sorry if I missed it in the wall of text.

You want to see a randomized controlled trial of zinc alone? The immune system requires many nutrients working together, which is why prevention protocols include more than one. The pharmaceutical paradigm of testing one substance at a time is not how nutrients work in the body, as pointed out by the great researcher T. Colin Campbell, PhD.
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/files/Fall2013/BookReview.pdf

For the doctors out there, isn't intravenous vitamin C something that is available as a treatment for various illnesses already? Isn't it something hospitals would have on hand. And if so, wouldn't it be in use in a bunch of hospitals in the US already (when appropriate)?

Holistic doctors have used IV-C for decades for various illnesses. Conventional doctors have generally ignored it after the Mayo Clinic falsely claimed to have disproved it as a cancer treatment. (Mayo used oral, not intravenous, vitamin C and refused to allow Linus Pauling to examine their data.)
Vitamin C and Coronavirus: Not a Vaccine; Just a Humble Cure

So no, most hospitals do not have IV-C on hand. But some US hospitals recently started using it for COVID-19, based on successful use in China, as I mentioned in my "wall of text."
New York hospitals treating coronavirus patients with vitamin C

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the things you suggest provide some help to reduce mortality around the margins (which would be good), but I think it's important to distinguish that it's probably not a miracle cure. But honestly, you're posting so much stuff it's hard to keep track - you're saying there's a lot of stuff that can help, but it's hard for me to nail down anything that's a definitive solution.

Seeing a patient go from dying to recovering as you watch can seem pretty miraculous.

...Dr. Mao discussed one severe case in particular who was deteriorating rapidly. He gave a bolus of 50,000 mg Vit C IV over a period of 4 hours. They watched the patient's pulmonary (oxygenation index) status stabilizing and improving in real-time. There were no side effects reported to all the cases treated with high dose IVC.
Hospital treatment of serious and critical COVID-19 infection with high-dose Vitamin C | Cheng Integrative Health Center Blog​

But a "definitive solution" likely includes more than one substance. Here's the protocol of a national group of distinguished critical care doctors, also mentioned before:

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-...seTreating-Covid-19-in-ER-April-15-2030_3.pdf

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You want to see a randomized controlled trial of zinc alone? The immune system requires many nutrients working together, which is why prevention protocols include more than one. The pharmaceutical paradigm of testing one nutrient at a time is not how they work in the body, as pointed out by the great researcher T. Colin Campbell, PhD.

No, I just meant RCT of anything you're referring to. Obviously it's possible to design a trial to determine effectiveness of any one particular treatment. Just wondering whether anything like that has been done.

I haven't seen any evidence in anything you've linked to that indicates any of the things you mention are an actual solution to the mortality associated with this disease. As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if certain things move the needle a bit (which is important at an individual level of course), but broadly speaking the same issue of massive mortality seems like it's going to remain, even if all these treatments are incorporated.

Obviously anyone who is more fit, with a healthier diet, etc., with no deficiencies, is likely to do better at combating the disease. But in life there are no guarantees.

 

[PeterJA]

No, I just meant RCT of anything you're referring to. Obviously it's possible to design a trial to determine effectiveness of any one particular treatment. Just wondering whether anything like that has been done.

Clinical trials of IV-C for COVID-19 are underway in China, as I mentioned several times. Randomized trials and a mountain of clinical case reports have been done for other types of viral pneumonia.

I haven't seen any evidence in anything you've linked to that indicates any of the things you mention are an actual solution to the mortality associated with this disease....

I can only post the information; I can't read it for you.

 

[SVMike]

I can only post the information; I can't read it for you.

You could setup a Zoom meeting and see if hundreds of people show up...or not

 

[PeterJA]

You could setup a Zoom meeting and see if hundreds of people show up...or not

Yes I could. But with Zoom, I couldn't provide milk and cookies for Story Time.

 

[Tiger]

Just in: novel worldwide solution proposed for opening up the economy during COVID-19:

 

[dfwatt]

There are only so many ways to get bleach inside the body. Pick one.

Whichever way you pick it can't hold a candle - pun intended - to Solabag!

 

[dfwatt]

Take a close look at that deaths per million people section and consider if those higher rates were where the US might end up

600 deaths per million near the top would put the US deaths at 196,920.
500 deaths per million above Italy would put the the US deaths at 164,100
420 deaths per million just below the UK would put the US deaths at 137,844
350 deaths per million just below France would put the US deaths at 114,870
300 deaths per million just above the Netherlands would put the US deaths at 98,460

The US is already Number 1 on gross cases and deaths, and number 3 in per capita cases. If deaths in the US go above 160,000 or so we'll be top 3 for per capita deaths also.

Trump said we'd all be sick of winning by the time he was done. He was right.

 

[dfwatt]

You want to see a randomized controlled trial of zinc alone? The immune system requires many nutrients working together, which is why prevention protocols include more than one. The pharmaceutical paradigm of testing one substance at a time is not how nutrients work in the body, as pointed out by the great researcher T. Colin Campbell, PhD.
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/files/Fall2013/BookReview.pdf


Holistic doctors have used IV-C for decades for various illnesses. Conventional doctors have generally ignored it after the Mayo Clinic falsely claimed to have disproved it as a cancer treatment. (Mayo used oral, not intravenous, vitamin C and refused to allow Linus Pauling to examine their data.)
Vitamin C and Coronavirus: Not a Vaccine; Just a Humble Cure

So no, most hospitals do not have IV-C on hand. But some US hospitals recently started using it for COVID-19, based on successful use in China, as I mentioned in my "wall of text."
New York hospitals treating coronavirus patients with vitamin C

Seeing a patient go from dying to recovering as you watch can seem pretty miraculous.

...Dr. Mao discussed one severe case in particular who was deteriorating rapidly. He gave a bolus of 50,000 mg Vit C IV over a period of 4 hours. They watched the patient's pulmonary (oxygenation index) status stabilizing and improving in real-time. There were no side effects reported to all the cases treated with high dose IVC.
Hospital treatment of serious and critical COVID-19 infection with high-dose Vitamin C | Cheng Integrative Health Center Blog​

But a "definitive solution" likely includes more than one substance. Here's the protocol of a national group of distinguished critical care doctors, also mentioned before:

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-...seTreating-Covid-19-in-ER-April-15-2030_3.pdf

That treatment protocol recommends routine use of steroids and hydroxychloroquine. The latter drug has been shown to likely increase mortality. There is no version of double-blind data on this treatment protocol. And anecdotal reports of wonderful cures and other testimonial type statements which you love to post here simply don't cut it in a scientific sense. There needs to be a large randomized controlled trial. In science you cannot support claims with other claims. Claims need to be supported with a data set that is judged to be scientifically adequate (methodologically/statistically). That's not some defense of big Pharma (which has had its own love affair with cooked datasets) it's simply a defense of science.

I know you don't like hearing that but that's simply the only way you can determine whether or not something is actually working or whether some one is simply cherry-picking anecdotal cases out of enthusiasm and belief. If intravenous vitamin C improves immune function, and there certainly are corollary lines of evidence that it might in terms of its role in neutrophil physiology, then the 'signal' (positive impact) should appear clearly and separate from the noise so to speak in a large trial. Absent that data set you simply cannot make claims. I'm not sure why that's so hard for you to accept.

 

[deonb]

Again. You keep talking IFR with no denominator. There's no way we're at 3% infection(10M) in the US. Have you walked around this place? I have! And even if we were, that's 100k deaths, not 69k.

We're likely far closer to 100M than 10M infections in the US, that's why I drew the parallel to Swine Flu. Everyone's doing the same faulty denominator math that was done back in 2009. If we know CV19 spreads more easily than Swine Flu(and it's novel!), why would we think the eventual case count would somehow be an order of magnitude lower?

If you're so sure about that, that implies this thing is going to be over in 7 to 10 days and you'll see infection count abruptly drop off a cliff. That in turn will cause the biggest stock market rally in history.

Why don't you sell all your assets, mortgage your house to the brim, and invest all your cash in short term call options. Especially airlines stocks right now seem like a bargain.

You can pick up something like UAL $65 May 15 Calls for 1c right now. If you are right, in 10 days UAL would recover and the call option will be worth about $30. 3000-to-1. You'll make a billion dollars for every $333k you put in there. Cool beans.

So stop arguing with a bunch of people you clearly think are reality-challenged idiots, and go work on putting your money where you mouth is. Then come back and rub it into our faces 2 weeks from now.

 

[MABMAB]

Musk mentioned

 

[Mader Levap]

the entire nation is infected

At that stage I know you are simply making up stuff.

Ah well, I guess denialists gonna denial.

Why do smug liberals keep distorting what Trump said? Trump NEVER said to drink bleach! He said to inject bleach!

Nooo! He "just" said to consider seriously idea of injecting bleach! I am not sure how it makes things better but I am sticking with it!

Btw, article on how murica makes fool out of itself in eyes of world: The Rest of the World Is Laughing at Trump

Poor taste, @RobStark
Comparing Trumpers or anyone else to Klansmen who have lynched black people crosses the line. Please delete.

Considering that Trump's reaction (or rather lack of it) and complete incompetence, not to mention making fool out of himself at every opportunity is main reason of current state of USA (both COVID-19-wise and reputation-wise), this comparison seems to be adequate. In fact, COVID-19 already killed more people in USA than KKK ever did. Thanks, Trump and people that elected him!

 

[SageBrush]

the true IFR is at least 0.8 if not 1.2 or higher.

This plays to the trumper POV, but what is your guess for the IHR in the under 70 crowd ?
Or in the non-NH crowd ?

IHR: infection hospitalization rate