Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Coronavirus

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
40% of NL residents hesitant about eventual coronavirus vaccine

If a vaccine against Covid-19 was discovered, 41 percent of Netherlands residents would be hesitant to get vaccinated. They worry that the vaccine would be rushed and about the risks involved in it, according to a survey by EenVandaag among 35 thousand Dutch. Young people in particular are hesitant about this vaccine

59 percent of respondents said that they would get vaccinated once a good vaccine is available. 18 percent said they don't want to be vaccinated against the coronavirus. And 23 percent are hesitant.
 
unlike others who bash dissenting opinions on here
Just about everybody has an opinion. This thread is for data and analysis, so it you want something other than dismissal then provide quality data and reason. You will not be able to reason until you have a firm grasp of the fundamentals related to epidemics, ncov-2, and reporting.
 
Right, but people should remember that a hospital that is full is its own big problem. ICU beds are just the canary in the coal mine. One hospital full -- small problem. Close to all hospitals full -- catastrophic consequences.

Yes and it's something that can make your effective case fatality rate numbers double or even triple. All you have to do is have everybody that needs Hospital level care turned away. See what happens to total deaths versus average expectable deaths at that point and it's not a pretty picture as I'm sure you would agree. All the folks posting about how covid-19 is "just the flu" or that there's some kind of totally overblown media induced panic and everybody should chill out and get a grip should just spend a day in an ICU.
 
40% of NL residents hesitant about eventual coronavirus vaccine

If a vaccine against Covid-19 was discovered, 41 percent of Netherlands residents would be hesitant to get vaccinated. They worry that the vaccine would be rushed and about the risks involved in it, according to a survey by EenVandaag among 35 thousand Dutch. Young people in particular are hesitant about this vaccine

59 percent of respondents said that they would get vaccinated once a good vaccine is available. 18 percent said they don't want to be vaccinated against the coronavirus. And 23 percent are hesitant.

It would be interesting to see more nuanced inventories of what people's concerns are based in. For example, to what extent is this a general concern about all vaccines being dangerous, the dissemination of an anti vaxxer meme so to speak versus a more realistic and context-dependent concern that there will be inadequate time to explore issues such as vaccination-enhanced inflammatory responses which are actually one of my big concerns. This essentially means that the vaccinated individual has an enhanced and destructive inflammatory cascade in the context of being challenged with the pathogen against which they have been vaccinated. It's been described in relationship to other Coronavirus, where inoculation has led to a small but non-trivial incidence of extensive lung damage..
 
  • Informative
Reactions: TespaceX
It would be interesting to see more nuanced inventories of what people's concerns are based in. For example, to what extent is this a general concern about all vaccines being dangerous, the dissemination of an anti vaxxer meme so to speak versus a more realistic and context-dependent concern that there will be inadequate time to explore issues such as vaccination-enhanced inflammatory responses which are actually one of my big concerns. This essentially means that the vaccinated individual has an enhanced and destructive inflammatory cascade in the context of being challenged with the pathogen against which they have been vaccinated. It's been described in relationship to other Coronavirus, where inoculation has led to a small but non-trivial incidence of extensive lung damage..
I am guessing but I imagine a large fraction are the 'you first' crowd that does not yet realize a phase III trial has already tested ~ 50 - 100k people.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: Yuri_G and jerry33
It would be interesting to see more nuanced inventories of what people's concerns are based in. For example, to what extent is this a general concern about all vaccines being dangerous, the dissemination of an anti vaxxer meme so to speak versus a more realistic and context-dependent concern that there will be inadequate time to explore issues such as vaccination-enhanced inflammatory responses which are actually one of my big concerns. This essentially means that the vaccinated individual has an enhanced and destructive inflammatory cascade in the context of being challenged with the pathogen against which they have been vaccinated. It's been described in relationship to other Coronavirus, where inoculation has led to a small but non-trivial incidence of extensive lung damage..

Surprisingly, my neighbor (a hospitalist that treats COVID-19 patients) expressed similar concerns. Basically he stated he didn't want to be in the first group vaccinated, believing that the vaccine was being rushed through too quickly. When I asked him to expound upon that line of thinking, all I got was generalized vagueness, nothing specific he could point to that made him feel that way.

Needless to say, I'm still in shock that a board certified MD, seeing these patients, would have those "feelings" yet be unable to articulate exactly why.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: kbM3 and dfwatt
Surprisingly, my neighbor (a hospitalist that treats COVID-19 patients) expressed similar concerns. Basically he stated he didn't want to be in the first group vaccinated, believing that the vaccine was being rushed through too quickly. When I asked him to expound upon that line of thinking, all I got was generalized vagueness, nothing specific he could point to that made him feel that way.

Needless to say, I'm still in shock that a board certified MD, seeing these patients, would have those "feelings" yet be unable to articulate exactly why.
His worries aren't backed by data but neither are they entirely groundless. In the past, vaccines that have been rushed into service (as this one may well be) have had problems that time eventually resolved.
Robin
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doggydogworld
By the time people were dying at home in NYC the city had been locked down for a few weeks, but Texas is just shutting down now. That will likely mean the peak will be much worse in Houston and some other Texas cities than in NYC.

I think this is unlikely - though in aggregate nationwide I think it could be worse than NYC soon. But in a single city, per capita, I don’t think so.

I think the main difference is a lot of people are aware the virus is out there and are taking strict steps to protect themselves. That will limit explosive growth - with true Rt below 1.5, most likely.

Obviously if they just let things keep going with Rt at 1.5 eventually it will far exceed the NYC peak. But the hospitals will overflow and necessitate action well before then.

Meanwhile, FL & AZ reported about 200 deaths today. Keeps on ramping up...no surprises here. We've seen this story before. 65+ have increased to 13% of new cases in AZ. That's bad. Intubations are going gangbusters lately. What surprises me about the picture is the lull more than anything. I can't explain that, other than perhaps a reporting issue of some form.

I'm sure this will end well.


Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 9.00.15 AM.png
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dig deeper
Overpaid morons anyway. Happy to see all pro sports shut down. Although, admittedly, I will miss seeing college basketball.

Yeah, another way the NFL season will look different is that there won't be one, with our current trajectory.

Maybe they'll rely on monoclonal antibodies? A lot of the players are probably in higher risk categories with their weight, though obviously they are generally pretty fit.

I'm very concerned that it's going to take career (or life) altering damage to a world-class athlete for sports leagues to take this seriously. It's obviously going to be a rare occurrence - nearly all pro athletes will fight it off just fine - but I'm convinced irreversible damage can and will happen, eventually.
 
That's a joke. So you can tackle the guy but you can't swap jerseys with him later? That makes perfect sense:eek:
Maybe they'll switch to flag rather than tackle football. Each towel a large Lysol wipe. And at the end of the game no dumping a contaminated Gatorade tub on the coach. Just dump whatever is left in the wipe container.
 
...what are the metrics/ranges that would change people's m ind about how much to worry about this even if media kept reporting the most fear mongering click-bait headlines they could possibly draw up? (that is of course the business model of today's media)

I wouldn't worry about the media. Just use your head, and look at past data, and interpret.

Reasons for the discrepancy:

***(?) Indicates speculative; there's not any evidence I'm aware of that would confirm those factors, but I've seen them mentioned.***

1) Increased testing -> finds more cases; CFR will go down. (IFR unchanged all else being equal)
2) Different population infected, older people self-isolating (about 10% of cases are older rather than 20-30%); CFR, IFR go down.
3) Lead-time bias - cases identified earlier, leads to greater lags.
4) Deaths lag. It takes weeks to months to die from this disease, after infection.
5) Hospital staff better at operating equipment and understanding best interventions to use. (CFR, IFR reduced)
6) Treatments improved (remdesivir, steroids at appropriate time) (CFR, IFR reduced)
7) Earlier case identification and treatment in at-risk individuals leads to better outcomes. (CFR, IFR reduced)
8) (?) Inoculum/Initial viral load -> Masks & other precautions have reduced the initial load which may reduce the severity of the disease
9) (?) Vitamin D production might improve outcomes in summer.

With 10% of cases from people over 65, I expect an IFR of about 0.3%. And a CFR of 1-1.5% with current levels of testing and infection density. In other words, I believe we are locking in 600 deaths a day, minimum, in 2-3 weeks. That's on top of any other long tail deaths from March, April, and May, and you may need to add additional deaths from dramatically increased infections, in the event we're seeing 100k+ cases a day the next couple weeks (we'd be seeing in excess of 1000 deaths a day then in 3-4 weeks I would guess).

(I believe the IFR to date has been around 0.7% nationwide (there's a pretty wide range on this, but unlikely to be less than 0.6%). Exact IFR will vary depending on how many elderly people got infected and other specifics of the situation. So 0.3% would be a huge improvement - and most of that improvement is due to who is infected, so if we see break-in to the elderly population again, it will go up. AZ data suggests more old people are now getting infected, as infection pressure increases (about 13% today, up from 10%).)

Right now covid19-projections predicts nothing of the sort in terms of 1000+ deaths a day, but I believe their model will lag, since I believe it at least partially bases its predictions on deaths, which lag. COVID-19 Projections Using Machine Learning

I will say their prediction for total deaths has steadily increased from ~185k to 205k now in the last week or so. I expect it to revise up rapidly in the next few days, as it picks up the trend in AZ, TX, FL, and CA.

Hopefully I'm totally wrong.
 
Last edited:
Surprisingly, my neighbor (a hospitalist that treats COVID-19 patients) expressed similar concerns. Basically he stated he didn't want to be in the first group vaccinated, believing that the vaccine was being rushed through too quickly. When I asked him to expound upon that line of thinking, all I got was generalized vagueness, nothing specific he could point to that made him feel that way.

Needless to say, I'm still in shock that a board certified MD, seeing these patients, would have those "feelings" yet be unable to articulate exactly why.

From a layperson’s perspective, given how covid testing and antibody testing can be questionable for various reasons, don’t see any reason to think vaccines early on would be reliable either. Anything rushed gives pause for sure. The addage “things improve with age” might just apply here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doggydogworld
Calif. Gov. Newsome just spoke at the noon hour with focus today on Calif wildfires, PG&E and covid-related concerns for the fire fighting teams and how people who might be asked to evacuate during covid will be moved. He strongly reminded everyone to wear those face masks and continue distancing in their communities with the intent of keeping infections low and posing a lesser risk to our essential fire fighting teams out there who we depend on to be there on the front lines of these fires. He said we are officially in fire season now.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Ulmo
@TSLAopt here's the latest death picture from Arizona, for your info.

The oncoming (now inevitable) wave of death has been obvious since mid-June, or even earlier, if you knew what to look for (a flattening two weeks retrospectively, and more shallow slope down 1 week retrospectively of the EPI curve is the canary).

https://twitter.com/koko_vivian/status/1281304120993824768?s=20

The only question now is for how long it lasts, and how high it gets. There is some evidence now that Arizona may be peaking, but that's a very sketchy claim to make in the few days after the long weekend - trends may be false. I think we shouldn't see a modification in infection rates for another few days, as AZ has been pretty slow to respond, and the denial at the highest levels has driven continued carelessness. But maybe people took their own action earlier. On the other hand, I think 4th of July likely led to a great deal of irresponsible behavior so we've yet to see the effect of that.

This guy may be a good follow for some analysis, but I haven't tracked him for long:

https://twitter.com/_stah
 
  • Informative
Reactions: TSLAopt
...at what point if this trend continues (deaths decreasing and/or staying where they're at let's say) do you change your mind?
I've already changed my mind about a lot of things, e.g. the whole ventilator thing.
For example, if there are 5mm cases reported for example and 1-2 months later only ~100 deaths per day still then I think we'd all change our mind obviously about how much of a concern this COVID pandemic still needs to be...what are the metrics/ranges that would change people's m ind about how much to worry about this even if media kept reporting the most fear mongering click-bait headlines they could possibly draw up?
I mostly ignore reported cases. And the media. The US has about 7500 total deaths each day this time of year. 2000 from cancer, 2000 from heart disease, etc. 100 deaths/day is "just a flu" territory and would only justify mild countermeasures, similar to what we do for flu.

Without countermeasures this virus spread quickly in NYC throughout February and early March. NYC averages about 150 deaths per day. At the peak in early April they hit 1100/day:
upload_2020-7-9_14-26-32.png


That's right. Roughly 6 times as many people were dying from COVID as all other causes combined. Had they not locked down in mid-March it would have been even worse. Obviously not "just a flu".

No other US city will see that sharp a spike. Instead of infecting young and old simultaneously, these new outbreaks are starting with the young and spreading to the old over time. That delays the rise in deaths and spreads it over a longer time period. But 100/day? Unfortunately that's just a pipe dream unless we start taking this seriously.
 
You’re not up on latest. He’s no longer a trumper. Said he’s taking the MAGA hat off. Wonder if it had something for him to do with his revealing he had covid “pretty bad” a little while ago. Maybe felt lied to by not wearing masks and it would disappear soon. Anyway kind of also explains his recent announcement of running against trump for the presidency. Won’t even touch on that here. But no, he’s no longer in trumps camp.

From Forbes, today: Kanye West Says He’s Done With Trump—Opens Up About White House Bid, Damaging Biden And Everything In Between

I had heard of his bipolar condition alluded to sometime ago but saw this article from People today that makes it clear to everybody. Just for all the non-doctor and doctor-types out there that labeled him as a fruitcake.

Kanye West Is 'Struggling' with Bipolar Disorder as Rapper Says He Wants to Be President: Source
 
  • Love
Reactions: Florafauna