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And here it is….


I need help interpreting/reconciling this:

"vaccination coverage among eligible Massachusetts residents was 69%. Approximately three quarters (346; 74%) of cases occurred in fully vaccinated persons"

Doesn't this imply that vaccinated and unvaccinated people had about an equal chance of getting it?
 
Doesn't this imply that vaccinated and unvaccinated people had about an equal chance of getting it?

No, because:
1) You don't know what the % vaccinated was, amongst those exposed.
2) You don't know the symptomatic rate in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.
3) You don't know the rate at which symptomatic unvaccinated people will seek out testing vs. symptomatic vaccinated individuals.

That's what I can think of for now. There may be other factors not listed.

"First, data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant, during this outbreak. As population-level vaccination coverage increases, vaccinated persons are likely to represent a larger proportion of COVID-19 cases. Second, asymptomatic breakthrough infections might be underrepresented because of detection bias. Third, demographics of cases likely reflect those of attendees at the public gatherings, as events were marketed to adult male participants; further study is underway to identify other population characteristics among cases, such as additional demographic characteristics and underlying health conditions including immunocompromising conditions."

It's also worth noting that the exposure conditions (crowded, poorly ventilated, unmasked) may present a substantial challenge to the vaccine.
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As usual in public health, in this case it's impossible to know either the numerator or the denominator. Very frustrating!
 
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No, because:
1) You don't know what the % vaccinated was, amongst those exposed.
2) You don't know the symptomatic rate in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.
3) You don't know the rate at which symptomatic unvaccinated people will seek out testing vs. symptomatic vaccinated individuals.

That's what I can think of for now. There may be other factors not listed.

"First, data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant, during this outbreak. As population-level vaccination coverage increases, vaccinated persons are likely to represent a larger proportion of COVID-19 cases. Second, asymptomatic breakthrough infections might be underrepresented because of detection bias. Third, demographics of cases likely reflect those of attendees at the public gatherings, as events were marketed to adult male participants; further study is underway to identify other population characteristics among cases, such as additional demographic characteristics and underlying health conditions including immunocompromising conditions."

It's also worth noting that the exposure conditions (crowded, poorly ventilated, unmasked) may present a substantial challenge to the vaccine.


As usual in public health, in this case it's impossible to know either the numerator or the denominator. Very frustrating!

1) It's unlikely the unvaccinated would have been more careful than the vaccinated.
2) We do know the symptomatic rate of vaccinated was 79%. Unvaccinated could be at worst 21% more.
3) Is there a reason to assume it will be significantly different?

Also 80% of the hospitalized were vaccinated, which also just conforms to 70% of population being vaccinated. A vaccine that's 90% effective with preventing symptomatic illness should have that number the other way around (80% of hospitalized being unvaccinated).
 
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It's unlikely the unvaccinated would have been more careful than the vaccinated.

It's not clear that's the case, at all. This is an extremely high vaccination rate area. Vaccinated individuals may have felt safer than unvaccinated individuals. Risk compensation is a known phenomenon.

The vaccination rate in June amongst Cape Cod residents age 12 and over was 82%. It was possibly even higher in the affected population (median age 40, but should have had minimal population age 12-20 - there was someone less than 1 year old though. The median individual had been fully vaccinated for nearly three months, by end of April).


When it comes down to it, we have no idea what the population exposed was. That's the point. Further study would be needed to figure out the demographics and vaccination rate of those exposed.


We do know the symptomatic rate of vaccinated was 79%. Unvaccinated could be at worst 21% more.

Amongst those who were tested.... (The overall symptomatic rate amongst tested individuals was 74%.)

It's really hard to say. We don't know numerators or denominators here. There are so many different ways it could go I thought about it and then just gave up.

1) Not everyone symptomatic will get tested. It might depend on symptom severity.
2) Not everyone asymptomatic will get tested.
3) Vaccinated individuals who get infected may have lower or higher rates of asymptomatic COVID than unvaccinated individuals. We don't know. You'd think it would be lower, but it's actually hard to say, because we're talking about individuals where they actually got infected, which may select for individuals who are more likely to be symptomatic.

Remember, there is a pool of probably ~1000 people (2-3x the number of cases identified) who were COVID positive but never got tested, based on historical underascertainment rates. We do not know whether they were vaccinated or not. What if in this group there were 750 unvaccinated people and 250 vaccinated people who weren't identified, because they were mostly young people, who were entirely asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic, who had been hitting the bars? We just don't know the numbers.

Is there a reason to assume it will be significantly different?
Plenty. Different age population, etc. Lots of potential confounders. Demographics of people who have been vaccinated are MUCH different than people who have not been vaccinated.

Also 80% of the hospitalized were vaccinated, which also just conforms to 70% of population being vaccinated.
Again, think of the demographics of those who are vaccinated, vs. those who are not. Really have to know everything about the populations in question. It's also a very small sample so drawing any conclusion is really difficult. As an example: Approximately, median age of vaccinated was 42 (given), while median age of unvaccinated was 34 (this value was not given, but overall median was 40). That 8-year age difference changes risk of hospitalization by about a factor of 2-3 (assuming rate goes up similar to risk of death).


I don't mean to minimize delta. You should mask up even if you're vaccinated, in public indoor settings (in my opinion). But as the CDC says, you cannot determine vaccine efficacy from this study. And I trust them on that!

View the vaccine as a moat or a line of defense. It's not impregnable. Add layers.

I would bet that if you did a challenge study of vaccinated individuals with the alpha variant (or whatever), and challenged them all with massive doses of the virus inhaled into their lungs (and of course did the same for a placebo group of unvaccinated individuals), that the vaccine efficacy would be MUCH lower than has been measured in the randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials. The vaccine isn't magic.
 
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So sad...


This whole vaccine hesitancy is just annoying. Just saw Walmart staff get yelled at for enforcing the state's mask mandate.

Given that those who want the vaccine already for theirs, perhaps we should just let the virus run rampant for a couple of months and let those unvaccinated just get sick or die - that is what they wanted in the first place. 1% mortality rate with overloaded hospitals should result in 10% mortality, improve the gene pool in the meanwhile. Those who are immune compromised can hunker down for a couple of months.

CNBC: Texas Gov. Abbott threatens fines again against local officials and businesses that enforce mask mandates, vaccine requirements.

Sigh...
 
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CNBC: Texas Gov. Abbott threatens fines again against local officials and businesses that enforce mask mandates, vaccine requirements.
I imagine Gov. Abbott's goal is that because he knows that Covid affects minorities and lower income people more than the wealthy, by actively discouraging mask wearing, more people who are likely to vote against him are going to be unable to vote. It seems the Conservative platform is us vs. them, so the fewer of the them there are, the better.
 
With the vaccine, that "risk to others" is VERY small now. There is always some risk in everything we do. We can't babysit everyone in society.
Seems a little short sighted. What would you hypothesize are conditions which would maximize likelihood of a variant that actually has immune escape?

I would guess one where there is a large portion of the population vaccinated, but not enough to prevent exponential spread of the virus. Sounds familiar.

It’s a numbers game. The virus may not ever come up with a way to escape the immune system, but we should still be minimizing the number of opportunities to lower the chance of success.
I’d like to know more details about this…

Arrgh. Talk about an article with zero information. Literally no information about denominators. Haven’t they been writing this type of article for nearly two years now? Completely irresponsible (and quite useless in that it provides zero information) reporting.

The goal is to have 100% of cases be vaccinated, of course. Hopefully that will be the statistic from these hospitals very soon.

UCSF has about 23000 employees or something like that, but who knows which population we are talking about here.

My prior here is the vaccine is 80% effective in this context, and it looks like this (non) result is consistent with that (there’s zero information about what this result is, so zero impact on the prior). Looks like the population in question was about 85-90% vaccinated. (But I have absolutely no idea.)
 
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Arrgh. Talk about an article with zero information. Literally no information about denominators. Haven’t they been writing this type of article for nearly two years now?
Yes, that’s why I deleted that post very shortly after checking around some more. It was a misleading write-up.

Here are the less sensational details:

 
Yes, that’s why I deleted that post very shortly after checking around some more. It was a misleading write-up.

Here are the less sensational details:

It’s not your fault they can’t do basic math very well. It’s a real communication problem as the CDC said. They are really trying to figure out how to tell people that it is good when we have 100% of cases in vaccinated individuals.

Can you summarize the denominators since I can’t access the article easily?
 
Can you summarize the denominators since I can’t access the article easily?
Here’s an alternative article:


It’s 50 cases out of 7,500 employees at SF General Hospital (75-80% vaccinated) and 183 out of 35,000 UCSF employees (84% vaccinated).

Apparently the vast majority are thought to be general community acquired cases rather than workplace acquired.

In other words, not much of a story….
 
Seems a little short sighted. What would you hypothesize are conditions which would maximize likelihood of a variant that actually has immune escape?

I would guess one where there is a large portion of the population vaccinated, but not enough to prevent exponential spread of the virus. Sounds familiar.

It’s a numbers game. The virus may not ever come up with a way to escape the immune system, but we should still be minimizing the number of opportunities to lower the chance of success.

Actually, it's not short-sighted, it's biology. You are thinking binary (immune escape vs. immune). Whether vaccinated are spreading it (lower viral load, less spread, relatively), or the un-vaccinated are spreading it (higher viral load, more spread), doesn't really matter. You won't see a vaccinated person be a "super spreader".

Any "escape" from vaccination induced immunity will be gradual, and in degrees, and require the accumulation of multiple mutations (more than a handful). Delta may be the first step in that pathway, but I would not consider


You bored? That why you re-hashing something I said Wednesday?
 
It’s not your fault they can’t do basic math very well. It’s a real communication problem as the CDC said. They are really trying to figure out how to tell people that it is good when we have 100% of cases in vaccinated individuals.

Can you summarize the denominators since I can’t access the article easily?


Media doesn't care about facts/math/etc. All they care about is clicks and revenue.

I squarely blame Google for starting and perpetuating the click-per-revenue game that they are all now so beholden to.
 
National polls show that many more Republicans than Democrats are not planning on getting the vaccine. So Abbot and other Republican governors should lose votes in some quantity with these policies that are for their reelection rather than the well being of their constituents.

You are really betting on a ~1% fatality rate among a voting population to swing an election? It's not like this thing has the fatality rate of Ebola.
 
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