Cost of Fuel Equivalent

[gilscales]

Included. My lifetime (June to March, so far) battery to wheels is 217 Wh/mile. I figure up to 12% charging losses so 217/0.88 = 247 Wh/mile meter to wheels.

Just curious how you come up with the 88% number, I have heard it before but like I said I am showing something different for TeslaFi

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Included. My lifetime (June to March, so far) battery to wheels is 217 Wh/mile. I figure up to 12% charging losses so 217/0.88 = 247 Wh/mile meter to wheels.

You also need to add (9months*30days/mo*750Wh/day)/0.9 /(miles driven) to your number. For 10000 miles driven over the 9 month interval that would be 22.5Wh/mi. It's perhaps a slightly optimistic number as typically it's more like 1000Wh/day, but it depends. If you drive more, it's better, if you drive less, it's worse, of course.

 

[JayNJ]

A question I'm asked every time I tell someone I've gone electric, is "how much does it cost vs a gas car?" Of course this isn't a simple answer, given all the variables involved. But I've honed it down to a short quick answer. "About half of what gasoline costs". The formula I use is as follows, using round #'s.
Assumptions: 1. cost of gas: $3/gal, 2. cost of Kwh: .27cents (PG&E, Marin Co, SF Bay Area), 3. miles per KwH: 4 (300 mile range on 75 KwH batt pack: M3, LR, AWD) 4. Avg mpg of gas car: 25 mpg.
Example: 250 mile trip, gas vs elec.
Electric takes 63KwH to drive 250 miles (250/4). 63 x .27 = $17
Gas car takes 10 Gal to drive 250 mi. (250/25). 10 x $3.00-$30

Now, I know there are other benefits of driving electric, but most folks look at the bottom line before anything else, so am hoping to open some minds to going electric. The other surprising number to come out of this, for me at least, is my equivalent mpg. If driving 250 miles costs me $17, that's the same as using 5.67 gallons of gas. 250 miles / 5.67 = 44 mpg. The sticker MPGe says I should get 116 MPGe. Not sure how the EPA/DOT got 116, but either my or their numbers are way off. Thx for reading. Feedback welcome.

Your home electric price is more expensive than supercharger pricing.

 

[ralph142]

I knew the guy that sent it to me was an engineer [EE] and I think he was just tweaking me with some drivel from the internet He actually replied that he hoped I enjoyed my Tesla and fully grasped the the misleading and erroneous nature of the attack. That said I don't know how your comment "You lose." even applies. The point was to alert other members that this kind of misleading crap is getting put out there and other low information readers are possibly going to believe it. The "facts" are wrong. You seem to have seen that, too.

Sadly that article is exactly the same bs that you get when anti evolution, or anti vax or chem trails, etc come up. You need wings to stay above it, and trying to shoot it down point by point hardly ever works, the low information readers it’s addressed to give up after the first topic sentence.

 

[navguy12]

Eight years driving my (previous) 2008 Prius in a mild hyper miler way: 5.7 cents per km for fuel over 150,000 (+/-) km (spreadsheets on laptop, not on right now).

10 months and 23,000 km in my Model 3: 3.0 cents per km for energy from all sources (mostly via home EVSE circuit monitored with stand alone meter and Eyedro system for costing). No hyper miler techniques being used.

 

[Dabmik]

Since we generally compare ICE vehicles on a gas mileage basis, I created a simple Microsoft XLXS based model in which you input three things:

A) the kwh/mi you are getting (read from the display in your vehicle),
B) the price of a kwh of electricity in your area (include taxes, fees, etc. from your electric bill) in $ format,
and
C) the price of gasoline in your area (need to decide if comparing to regular, premium or ???) in $ format.

For those who are interested, the formula (using the above letters) is:

(A x B)/1000 or A times B divided by 1000 = Cost per mile driven in EV

Then divide C by the above result. The output is the equivalent gas mileage.

For example, my readout is typically around 275 kwh/mi and the price of electricity at my place is around $0.15 per kwh. So my cost per mile is 275 x $0.15 = 41.25. Divide by 1000 = $0.04125. (a little over 4 cents per mile.)

Per the Gas Buddy app, gas in my locale is currently around $2.70 for Regular and $3.25 for Premium

Divide $2.70 by $0.04125 and the result is an equivalent cost of 65.5 mpg on Regular

Divide $3.25 by $0.04125 and the result is an equivalent cost of 78.8 mpg on Premium

For those who are mathematically challenged, I tried to upload the file but the system will not permit me, "The uploaded file does not have an allowed extension."

This allows direct comparison to your buddies who are driving dinosaurs - AND I STILL HAVE ONE

Happy Motoring!!!!

 

[Dariushd]

One thing for ICE drivers to know is driving style plays a huge part in how much mileage you get. For example, in my bmw 328, driving aggressively (fast starts, driving over speed limit, etc—and yes I know I’m an a-hole) got me about 19mpg compared to the avg 24 I should be getting, about a 25% premium to pay. So driving 100 miles takes off 125 miles off my gas tank.
In my long range m3, driving the same takes off about 1.5 miles for every mile of range I have, so driving the same 100 miles costs me 150 off my 310 range.
With that in mind, I pay .16 per kWh here in SoCal (ignoring my solar panels), so if it takes upwards of 90kwh to charge my 75kwh battery, that’s a total of $14.40 for a full battery that nets my a-hole driving about 206 miles.
With premium gas at about $3.40 here on average, my bmw in a-hole drive mode to get 206 miles is 10.8 gallons which is $37.80.
So even if you drive aggressively and have somewhat higher electric rates, factoring in 20% loss meter to wheels, you’re still ahead by more than half.
If I drive modestly I could get the ratio to be about 1/3 of what gas costs I’m sure.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

For example, my readout is typically around 275 Wh/mi and the price of electricity at my place is around $0.15 per kwh. So my cost per mile is 275 x $0.15 = 41.25. Divide by 1000 = $0.04125. (a little over 4 cents per mile.)

For an in-car readout of 275Wh/mi, your real-world use (if you had a way to monitor your electric meter for the EV in isolation), is likely to be about 340Wh/mi (assuming you drive about 10k miles per year). This is due to charging and vampire losses.

So, your cost is about 340Wh/mi*$0.15/kWh = $0.051 (5.1 cents/mi). I'm at 290Wh/mi on the readout and I'm at 360Wh/mi wall to wheel.

 

[SageBrush]

Just curious how you come up with the 88% number, I have heard it before but like I said I am showing something different for TeslaFi

There is no one perfect number since it varies by temperature, EVSE, and OBC. The EPA found 12% losses so I use that, although it might be a few percent lower.

 

[Pegase]

If you decide to travel go electric might as well doing it with style!
Zero emission is hard to beat!
Gaz guzzlers are poluting period. Thus even at the same cost as gasoline you are winning. So If you go electric you don't do it to save only but to put less Green house gaz in the air you and others breathe.
Electric engines are at least 3 to 4 times more efficient then a gasdolin engine which is about 25% to 30% efficient at the very most.

 

[RaeW]

When you see this just smile...

THE PINEHURST PRESS NEWS & VIEWS

Interesting Take on Electric Cars

As an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology. However, I
have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical
energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid and
that means more power generation and a huge increase in the
distribution infrastructure Whether generated from coal, gas, oil,
wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited. A friend sent
me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look
at this short article.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN
PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES,
WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND
BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR
MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car:

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of
those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg
in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity
to run it . This is the first article I've ever seen and tells the
story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things
yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put
engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro
Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you
had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system
for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped
with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes),
The electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three
houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have
electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our
residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius
elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged
to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems
with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have
to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment"
will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that
it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are
eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green
person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and
he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted
only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
"Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran
on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the
16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10
hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5
hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging
Time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of
electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned ,
so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16
per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the
Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a
gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32
Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs
$46,000 plus. So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to
do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs
more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to
drive across the country.

My response using actual data:

The Tesla is great to drive. But, your calculation’s are still messed up.
Electricity to go 100 miles is 25 kWh or 25 X 0.091 = $2.28.
Gas at 25 mpg (my Lexus) at 2.119 per gallon = 4 gallons for 100 miles or $8.48
Plus I don't pay for oil changes or a dozen other expenses you pay for with in internal combustion engine.
The average is about $3,400 a year.
There is some small maintenance. About $475 a year. Now tires are expensive because you have to have
a tire that can go the 155 mph top speed of the car. But an Audi or BMW or equally fast internal combustion
engine car would require the same expensive tires. Also the Audi or BMW requires Premium gas at $2.799
a gallon so the cost for a “comparable car” would be $11.20. And these “comparable” cars costs as much as
a Tesla.
The IRS gives you $0.55 per mile to drive a car. That’s closer to the actual cost.
So I got the car in November. So October with no Tesla was 1,544 kW
November was 1,456 kWh and about 1,400 kWh after the Tesla The year before with no Tesla was just over
1,000 kWh during the winter. So it looks like 400 kWh per month for the Tesla, or $36.40 But gas would have been
$135.04.


View attachment 391549

Is this an April 1. Post?
https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/

 

[Electric Denny]

Here's my numbers on an S100D: 3.7 cents/mile. My 25 mpg Hybrid SUV: 15c/mile. Time of use electricity is 12.5 cents/kWh when I charge and regular gasoline is $3.50. I'm happy for you if you're cheaper than this on either the gasoline or the electricity. I used EPA average for both vehicles.

 

[StealthP3D]

One more point: When considering lifetime costs of driving a car, factoring in plausible changes in fuel prices is fair. Like everything else, the cost of electricity is more likely to go up over the next few years than it is to go down. The same is true of gasoline, of course.

The cost of electricity is much more stable than the price of gasoline and the move to wind and solar has already had a positive impact in many areas. All it takes for the price of gasoline to skyrocket is war in an oil-producing region or even a regional pipeline exploding or taken offline for repairs. Currently, there is upward pressure on fuel prices caused by sanctions on Venezuela and Iran.

More areas need to implement time of use electrical pricing. Currently, wind and solar is taken off-line (wasted) during periods of over-production. This is nearly free electricity that currently goes to waste due to lack of time of use pricing.

 

[StealthP3D]

Again, to be fair, you only get AT BEST about 3.3 mi/kWh (300Wh/mi), for the LR RWD, or 3mi/kWh (330Wh/mi, for the AWD, assuming no heat usage, and about 10k miles per year.

These are close to the absolute best case numbers with those assumptions. You might be able to get 280-290Wh/mi in the RWD (wall to wheel avg) if you only do city driving (~220-230Wh/mi battery to wheel).

I'm not so sure you're not making the mistake of being overly pessimistic for the LR RWD Model 3. My wife and I took a 200-mile trip today (interstate and state highways) and our battery to wheels consumption was only 210 Wh/mile. I like to floor it as much as most guys and never hesitated to hit the accelerator hard when pulling out into traffic. We had everything from 75 mph interstate cruising to 55-65 mph state highways to being stuck in traffic from stoplight to stoplight and 5 miles of powerline roads at 5-10 mph dodging rocks, gravel potholes and puddles being careful not to bottom out. If I wanted to limit my cruising speed and lay off the accelerator, we would have been down around 190 Wh/mile without any difficulty.

My wife doesn't read the Tesla forums so I was a little surprised when she suggested her LR RWD was getting better efficiency since she loaded the 2019.5.15 software. I had already noticed this on the previous highway trip we took in her car but I suggested it might just be the mild weather and she said, no, she is getting better efficiency than last spring/fall during periods of similar mild weather when it's not necessary to use much heat or A/C. She has her daily drive and noted that her numbers were lower than ever, even though she drives the same roads at the same speeds. And I've seen a number of people on-line suggesting their LR RWD 3's got more efficient with the recent update.

I also question your ~35% charging inefficiency. We're not seeing anything near that charging with a dedicated meter in our open carport (typically at 40-45 amps and 240V).

The bottom line is we pay very little to keep our two Model 3's charged. So little that I don't even bother using the free Supercharging that came with my Stealth P3D even though I drive right by a Supercharger every week. The electricity on our dedicated meter for our carport averages around $0.11 kWh plus about $8.50/month meter fee that we would not have to pay had we not electrified our stand-alone carport. Our gas bill running a Volvo S80 sedan and a Mazda CX-5 (before we got the two Model 3's) was 3-4 times that of our electric bill. The LR RWD Model 3 really sips the electrons. My P3D is quite a bit thirstier but still far cheaper than a gas car, even a gutless one like my old 2013 Mazda CX-5 AWD with the fuel-sipping 2.0L naturally aspirated direct injected engine.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm not so sure you're not making the mistake of being overly pessimistic for the LR RWD Model 3.

Maybe. That is a fantastically efficient car. The only datapoint I have seen is a 270Wh/mi wall-to-wheel result from Florida, posted here a couple months ago. I could believe around 200Wh/mi in the perfect situation. But no experience.

My wife doesn't read the Tesla forums so I was a little surprised when she suggested her LR RWD was getting better efficiency since she loaded the 2019.5.15 software.

Maybe. All my estimations were based on the prior software. If the RWD is more efficient the others will be too. I’ll have to benchmark my car again. I will say I took one road trip with the car, P3D, since the 5.15 update and got a fantastic 250Wh/mi round trip with A/C (no heat; it is summer now), with 8000 feet cumulative (0 net) elevation gain. That seems better than before. But it was also a lot warmer and may be more optimal for battery. But if the RWD was actually tweaked all the other cars would be too to some extent.

I also question your ~35% charging inefficiency.

I never said 35%! I only ever said 12% charging inefficiency (88% of the wall energy gets to the battery). And rounded to 10% in most calculations. I get 360Wh/mi with 290Wh/mi driving. I’ve measured it. That’s 12% charging and something like 12% vampire roughly (I drive about 9000 miles a year).

I know you have the capability to measure your results precisely yourself if you want. If you did, I’d do a careful experiment for a month but I can totally understand you wanting to not waste your time, wanting to be happy with your excellent efficiency, and avoiding the inconvenience of having to only charge at home which an experiment would require. In Washington State, it is a lot cheaper than gas no matter what, so no need to sweet the details. Go hydroelectric!

 

[StealthP3D]

Maybe. All my estimations were based on the prior software. If the RWD is more efficient the others will be too.

There is no rule that says Tesla cannot make efficiency improvements to only one powertrain. The other powertrains may have already had the presumed efficiency upgrade when first released - but the lower efficiency of the front motor is masking the result. Remember, the LR Model 3 was the ONLY Model 3 for the first, what, 6 months (or more) of production. It's possible that the RWD version was the ONLY version that did not already have whatever optimizations (may have) increased the efficiency. It's possible that the AWD models already had the optimizations when they were released and Tesla just got around to adding it to the RWD now. Delaying the efficiencies for the RWD would have the added benefit of not gutting all the high margin sales of AWD and Performance versions due to considerably less range. Now that Tesla is focussing on lower cost/higher volume RWD sales, it makes sense to add it now.

I think the truth of the matter will soon be more apparent, now that most owners are out of the deep freeze we had last winter.

 

[Moose408]

cost of Kwh: .27cents (PG&E, Marin Co, SF Bay Area)

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have already been answered, but you may want to looking into switching to PG&E's EV plan. With it I pay $0.11/KwH during off-peak hours.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There is no rule that says Tesla cannot make efficiency improvements to only one powertrain.....

I think the truth of the matter will soon be more apparent, now that most owners are out of the deep freeze we had last winter.

True. I don’t have detailed enough benchmarks that I will be able to tell, probably. Too many variables. Does not really matter. I will check my wall-to-wheel again at some point, once we have a consistently moderately warm weather (low-80s), which should happen soon. Not having limited regen, which happens at 50 degrees or even warmer, will definitely help the overall picture.

Clarifying the 200Wh/mi RWD number I mention above - that is obviously driving efficiency which would be 225Wh/mi best case (100k miles per year or whatever) and more like 250Wh/mi wall to wheel for 10k miles per year.

 

[StealthP3D]

Not having limited regen, which happens at 50 degrees or even warmer, will definitely help the overall picture.

I don't get that. I had pretty limited regen most of the winter but I can just about count on one hand the number of times I needed a significant application of the friction brakes (besides just a light touch here or there). A little anticipation goes a long way and the regen slowly comes back as you drive and the waste heat is directed to the batteries.

Clarifying the 200Wh/mi RWD number I mention above - that is obviously driving efficiency which would be 225Wh/mi best case (100k miles per year or whatever) and more like 250Wh/mi wall to wheel for 10k miles per year.

I think I've seen more than one report of lifetime driving efficiency (LR RWD) well below 200 Wh/mile. And I don't doubt the reports, I would be there myself if the natural efficiency of the car didn't ruin hypermiling for me. Now I just drive somewhere between a competent business-like manner and Mad Max depending upon my mood and conditions. Hypermiling was fun when I was conserving gasoline but it's no fun (for me) in a Model 3. It's too much fun to drive it like I mean it. Our Long-Range has a lifetime driving efficiency of around 238Wh/mile and falling due to the recent encounter with mild weather. And we never suffer the heat or cold to save electrons. In another two months, we will be at one year exactly and about 12,500 miles and I predict the lifetime Wh/mile driving efficiency will be somewhere down in the 220's.

My Stealth P3D is up around 275ish but I took delivery of it right as the winter weather set in. I suspect it's one year number will be around 250Wh/mile (and I'm often doing that 3.3 second 0-60 rush). Surprisingly, those pedal to the metal accelerations don't kill the efficiency numbers as much as one might expect provided those events are not terminated with a rapid slowdown braking (regen or otherwise).

Not only am I spending a whole lot less money to fuel my transport, I'm having a whole lot more fun getting from A to B!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don't get that. I had pretty limited regen most of the winter but I can just about count on one hand the number of times I needed a significant application of the friction brakes (besides just a light touch here or there). A little anticipation goes a long way

To be fair, this rarely happens since I keep my car garaged. On the occasions I have kept it outside overnight in brutal 50 degree temps and ~70-80% SoC, I get limited regen. My commute starts with an 800 foot descent, so I can anticipate that, but it does not help me. And as you know, with a cold battery, the longer you coast downhill, the more regen dots you get, and eventually I am forced to brake when it pulls regen (I did not believe this until I saw it myself, but a friend had been complaining). This is normal (and rare for me).

238Wh/mile and falling due to the recent encounter with mild weather. And we never suffer the heat or cold to save electrons. In another two months, we will be at one year exactly and about 12,500 miles and I predict the lifetime Wh/mile driving efficiency will be somewhere down in the 220's

238Wh/mi, so 290Wh/mi wall to wheel @12.5k annually (Or 265Wh/mi instantaneously)

220Wh/mi, so 244Wh/mi instantaneous or 269Wh/mi over the course of the year.

Those are some great numbers. The Bolt is much more efficient though. . Wouldn’t want to drive that thing though! P3D is worth the small extra expense ( I don’t pay for electricity anyway; makes it easier to bear).