CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[holeydonut]

Has anyone called PGE or .. and see if one can get a non export license so in theory, one would not have to pay the 8 buck charge?

I feel like my name and address are already on the PG&E -list... so I'm not going to make a call to see if a non-exporting PV+ESS system still needs a NEM2-MT or NEM2-PS agreement.

 

[holeydonut]

BTW folks - no news outlet picked this up, and I don't know where to put this since the Policy forum is lames. PG&E submitted a 12.1% natural gas $ per therm price increase (non-CARE; since I figure people on TMC are non-CARE). Likely will be approved, and likely will take affect retro to Jan 1, 2022.

https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/adviceletter/GAS_4543-G.pdf

December 23, 2021
Advice 4543-G
(Pacific Gas and Electric Company ID U 39 G)

And they said inflation is only 6%? Suckers.

This rate hike trajectory for NG is actually faster than the ~45% over 5 years that PG&E teased before; which I posted about below, but nobody cared.

PG&E proposes 18% to 45% rate hikes (electric and gas) beginning 2023 ending 2026 to address wildfire risk

Looks like PG&E believes it needs a few billion dollars to make their grid safe (edit, and improve infrastructure and better fund its pension), And since they can't make their operations more lean and intelligent, that just means it's time for rate payers to pony up...

teslamotorsclub.com

So, residential PV is getting NEM 3.0'd to death... and NG is going to cost an arm and a leg. Firewood seems like a safe bet.

 

[sunwarriors]

Already happening in the UK and most/all of Europe:

Analysis: Europe is paying record prices for energy. A winter crisis looms

Energy prices are skyrocketing, and as winter approaches, Europe is getting worried.

www.cnn.com

"As a result, the price of power for next-day delivery in France jumped 149% between the beginning of August and Sept. 15, according to data from ICIS. In Germany, prices leaped 119%."

"And in Britain, which operates a just-in-time market and doesn't have the same storage capacity as continental Europe, costs have surged 298%. Delayed maintenance work, as well as a fire that shut down a power cable that transmits electricity supplies from France, has piled on the pressure."

Gas price hike of more than 30% stokes home bills fears for Europe

Rise comes amid ongoing concern about intentions of Russia as supplies flow east for 15th day in row

www.theguardian.com

It can't hurt to discuss options on what to do with NG and solar massive price hikes. Maybe hunt for those wood ovens/heaters and chop down the tree outside my house.

 

[wwu123]

Already happening in the UK and most/all of Europe:

Yes, but I think that is just similar to the procurement portion of the rate, that PG&E buys gas and passes on to you. That part changes pretty much every month on your bill based on their actual procurement costs, and I think will go up without needing CPUC scrutiny. I believe what @holeydonut is pointing to is another increase in the other gas charges, which are not tied to the cost of procuring gas but on PG&E's other costs of doing business (including profits)....

 

[holeydonut]

Yes, but I think that is just similar to the procurement portion of the rate, that PG&E buys gas and passes on to you. That part changes pretty much every month on your bill based on their actual procurement costs, and I think will go up without needing CPUC scrutiny. I believe what @holeydonut is pointing to is another increase in the other gas charges, which are not tied to the cost of procuring gas but on PG&E's other costs of doing business (including profits)....

Yeah the illustrative procurement value on the chart I pasted is just their estimate for the actual dinosaur farts getting more costly. I guess you poked a hole in my propaganda piece blaming PG&E for 12.1% of the increase

If you remove the illustrative procurement, the % increase is 11.1% for items directly managed by PG&E (their profit, operations, transmission, CARE overhead, etc).

Regardless, this is outpacing PG&E's proposal from about 6 months ago because they thought from 2021 to Jan 2023; NG prices would "only" go up 18%. Seeing 12.1% by Jan 2022 is pretty sucky for idiots like myself that burn dinosaur farts for heat.

 

[tfan2018]

Good thing I'm switching my gas heater to hybrid electric one just in time with my solar going PTO

 

[holeydonut]

For anyone interested there's a conference call scheduled on January 12. This will provide NEM stakeholders time for oral statements, and the CPUC gets a brief 15 minutes of Q&A.

Aside from getting to hear CALSSA and SEIA talk about how the California residential solar-only market will get crushed (which is what the CPUC wants), oI think the only other slot worth listening to is Susan Tierney. She's the expert that the IOU's paid to basically come up with that ACC calculator that proves there's a glut of solar in California; and future residential solar-only construction is basically a zero-benefit.

*********************************************************************************

01/12/22 3:00 p.m. Pacific
R.20-08-020 (OA) - Order Instituting Rulemaking to Revisit Net Energy Metering Tariffs Pursuant to Decision 16-01-044, and to Address Other Issues Related to Net Energy Metering.

Webex: Meet virtually with Cisco Webex. Anytime, anywhere, on any device.

https://cpuc.webex.com/cpuc/onstage/g.php?MTID=e9886345083e39993a307cf1033584141

Meeting Passcode: 7218384#
Public Toll-Free: 800-857-1917
Public Passcode: 7218384#

Pursuant to Commission Rules of Practice and Procedure, Rule 13.14 (b), a quorum of Commissioners will be present.

Following brief introductory remarks, party representatives listed below shall each receive two minutes and 30 seconds to provide oral argument in the order indicated below. A timekeeper will automatically alert the speaker when their time is up. Following the final speaker will be a question-and-answer period. There will be approximately 15 minutes for Commissioners to pose questions to the party representatives.

The Commission will send each of the listed party representatives a speaker code prior to the January 12, 2022 Oral Arguments Hearing.

Party Representatives for January 12, 2022 Oral Arguments Hearing in Rulemaking 20-08-020

1. Carla Peterman Pacific Gas and Electric Company, San Diego Gas & Electric Company and Southern California Edison Company
2. Susan Tierney Pacific Gas and Electric Company, San Diego Gas & Electric Company and Southern California Edison Company
3. Kevin Johnston California Farm Bureau Federation
4. Jeff Parr California Solar & Storage Association
5. Nancy Rader California Wind Energy Association
6. Ben Schwartz Clean Coalition
7. Joseph Wiedman Coalition for Community Solar Access
8. Rachael Koss Coalition of California Utility Employees
9. Ken Cook Environmental Working Group
10. Steve Sherr Foundation Windpower, LLC
11. Stephen Campbell GRID Alternatives
12. Scott Murtishaw Independent Energy Producers Association
13. Allie Detrio Ivy Energy
14. Mohit Chhabra Natural Resources Defense Council
15. Tyson Siegele Protect Our Communities Foundation
16. Michael Campbell Public Advocates Office
17. Matt Vespa Sierra Club
18. Ariel Strauss Small Business Utility Advocates
19. Abigail Hopper Solar Energy Industries Association
20. Matthew Freedman The Utility Reform Network
21. Susannah Churchill Vote Solar
22. Dan Douglass Walmart, Inc.
23. Claire Broome 350 Bay Area

 

[tomuo]

I skimmed through the Hawai'i Electric webpage for Solar, they have 2 options now, either of which is fairer than the NEM3 proposal.
1. Export OK, but you get paid zero for it between 9am and 4pm.
2. Export Not OK, so your gateway must be smart enough to never export.

Both of these sufficiently incentivize combined generation+storage solutions.

 

[holeydonut]

I skimmed through the Hawai'i Electric webpage for Solar, they have 2 options now, either of which is fairer than the NEM3 proposal.
1. Export OK, but you get paid zero for it between 9am and 4pm.
2. Export Not OK, so your gateway must be smart enough to never export.

Both of these sufficiently incentivize combined generation+storage solutions.

You don't have anything similar to the fixed $12 a month or a variable $8 per kW per month they have in the California NEM?

The joint IOUs here in California would say Hawaii is worse since they are only paying $0.00 per kWh exported while PG&E will be paying something between $0.03 and $0.10 per kWh exported. And of course the IOUs here in California are full of crap.

 

[Southpasfan]

I skimmed through the Hawai'i Electric webpage for Solar, they have 2 options now, either of which is fairer than the NEM3 proposal.
1. Export OK, but you get paid zero for it between 9am and 4pm.
2. Export Not OK, so your gateway must be smart enough to never export.

Both of these sufficiently incentivize combined generation+storage solutions.

I don't even know if you can "skim it" and understand it. It looks to me like the credit for export is fixed at 15 cents but the charges are 28 cents and up.

They have some detailed explanations which are completely incomprehensible.

 

[Zorg]

I don't even know if you can "skim it" and understand it. It looks to me like the credit for export is fixed at 15 cents but the charges are 28 cents and up.

They have some detailed explanations which are completely incomprehensible.

Hawaii electricity rates are even worse than PG&E (average of 35c a KWh) and lots of insolation make it the perfect state for residential solar. My understanding is that residential solar there is limited.

 

[skepticcyclist]

Hawaii electricity rates are even worse than PG&E (average of 35c a KWh) and lots of insolation make it the perfect state for residential solar. My understanding is that residential solar there is limited.

And they also have the largest proportion of fossil fuel generated electricity than any other state. 62% of their electricity comes from petroleum based sources. Interesting considering they have no petroleum sources on the islands. A lot of imported oil and natural gas, which is why the rates are so high. Shipping cost for the fuel alone

 

[getakey]

And they also have the largest proportion of fossil fuel generated electricity than any other state. 62% of their electricity comes from petroleum based sources. Interesting considering they have no petroleum sources on the islands. A lot of imported oil and natural gas, which is why the rates are so high. Shipping cost for the fuel alone

which has to arrive by ship

 

[wwu123]

And they also have the largest proportion of fossil fuel generated electricity than any other state. 62% of their electricity comes from petroleum based sources. Interesting considering they have no petroleum sources on the islands. A lot of imported oil and natural gas, which is why the rates are so high. Shipping cost for the fuel alone

Yes, for one of the most isolated land masses in the entire globe, everything is expensive because it has to come by ship (except for the even more expensive things that come by air). Only a few agricultural things are gown locally - cows, milk, fruits, veggies. And the cheap Asia-manufactured goods don't even come directly from Asia, for the most part, they come by ship to the U.S. west coast first, and then are put on another domestic ship to Hawaii.

Even network TV show episodes ran one week later, because they had to be shipped from the U.S. (though I'm sure they were sent by air rather than by ship) until the 80's...

 

[skepticcyclist]

Yes, for one of the most isolated land masses in the entire globe, everything is expensive because it has to come by ship (except for the even more expensive things that come by air). Only a few agricultural things are gown locally - cows, milk, fruits, veggies. And the cheap Asia-manufactured goods don't even come directly from Asia, for the most part, they come by ship to the U.S. west coast first, and then are put on another domestic ship to Hawaii.

Even network TV show episodes ran one week later, because they had to be shipped from the U.S. (though I'm sure they were sent by air rather than by ship) until the 80's...

But electricity doesn't have to be that expensive and doesn't have to rely on fossil fuels via ships. The big island can get some from geothermal. The other islands can gets some from water and tides. All the islands have constant trade wind to get a lot from wind. The SW sides of all the islands, where most of the people live, have daily sun to get a lot from solar. And they can always build a gen 4 nuclear reactor using spent fuel to provide for all of the islands, without the need to ship any fuel after the initial supply of nuclear.

 

[Zabe]

But electricity doesn't have to be that expensive and doesn't have to rely on fossil fuels via ships. The big island can get some from geothermal. The other islands can gets some from water and tides. All the islands have constant trade wind to get a lot from wind. The SW sides of all the islands, where most of the people live, have daily sun to get a lot from solar. And they can always build a gen 4 nuclear reactor using spent fuel to provide for all of the islands, without the need to ship any fuel after the initial supply of nuclear.

I think your plan might only cost $1/kWH.

Hawaii is a perfect example of why everyone cannot put in rooftop solar and push excess power to the grid, at least not if the grid needs to maintain 60Hz.

 

[wwu123]

But electricity doesn't have to be that expensive and doesn't have to rely on fossil fuels via ships. The big island can get some from geothermal. The other islands can gets some from water and tides. All the islands have constant trade wind to get a lot from wind. The SW sides of all the islands, where most of the people live, have daily sun to get a lot from solar. And they can always build a gen 4 nuclear reactor using spent fuel to provide for all of the islands, without the need to ship any fuel after the initial supply of nuclear.

The BIg Island does get some of its power from geothermal (at least until the volcano eruption overran the area a few years back. The rest of the proposals are technically feasible absolutely - but inexpensive? Currently I don't think so. Also not the technologies' fault, but labor and union costs for infrastructure also very high in Hawaii (not trying to start a debate).

I'm a proponent of nuclear power over long-term time horizons, but only a good deal for a place like Hawaii if they can find another state like Nevada to take the radioactive waste after 50 years...

Actually one of the most innovative ideas to save on electricity costs by reducing consumption using the natural resources - there is a chilled water loop that has been built to bring up cold deep ocean water to provide air-conditioning for the downtown office buildings. At least before COVID started, they were about ready to allow individual office buildings to start hooking up to the system.

 

[skepticcyclist]

I'm a proponent of nuclear power over long-term time horizons, but only a good deal for a place like Hawaii if they can find another state like Nevada to take the radioactive waste after 50 years...

Which is why I said gen 4 reactors that runs on spent rods. They literally run on the waste that would otherwise be stored. Even when these rods eventually need to be stored, they will just be placed where they would have already been placed 50 years earlier. Gen 4 reactors reduce overall waste

 

[LeeM]

I was very happy to read that Tesla has asked their employees in CA to get involved in the fight against the CPUC NEM 3.0 proposal. The Utilities Are About To Kill Rooftop Solar Energy. A breathtaking abomination is about to take place before the California Public Utilities Commission (final vote January 27). This is naked corruption showcased on a grand scale not seen since the Gilded Age. What the outrageous new CPUC rules propose to do is seize the surplus electricity generated by ALL California rooftop solar panels, pay the owners of those panels 30 cents on the retail dollar for that electricity, then turn around and sell that SAME POWER, to other ratepayers for a dollar.

This gives the utilities a gigantic 332% windfall on electricity they never even generated. Then, as if that were not enough, the new rules will charge all rooftop solar panel owners $700 a year or more for the privilege of generating pollution-free electricity from their roofs. This will destroy rooftop solar. In the past two years alone, one out of every 5 trees in California has burned up in wildfires. (fire.ca.gov). In less than a generation, there will be no forest left as we have known them in California. Our reservoirs are on track to dry up, the Sierra to have no snowpack, and California agriculture to be decimated as the Central Valley turns into a desert. The State is now 60 years behind schedule in achieving the Legislature’s stated goal of carbon-free generation of electricity. So, what is our CPUC doing to address this dire climate emergency? Why they are proposing a gigantic leap backward: killing rooftop solar panels, the most successful clean energy program in history, allowing the sun to power 1.5 million California homes. Why? Pure naked utility greed. (And groveling politician cowardice -- Newsom pocketed $700,000 from PG&E alone). As always, follow the money!

Every electron generated on my roof is one PG&E can’t sell me. The utilities recognize that it’s now or never. Rooftop solar is growing rapidly and if current trends continue it will soon be too big and too popular to crush. Rooftop solar not only reduce climate-changing carbon emissions, it saves ratepayers, that’s YOU, billions by reducing the huge expense of electricity transmission thru dangerous, wildfire-causing wires. YOU can stop this! Or you can sit on your sofa and do nothing. Write (go online to the office of Governor Gavin Newsom website at CA.gov) or call Governor Newsom (916) 445-2841 and tell him to stop the CPUC from destroying rooftop solar energy! Stand up for the right to make clean energy from the sun!

 

[Zorg]

I hand it over to the utilities for their genius play on the woke movement. I've read quite a few articles from various publications and they all repeat the same story that NEM2 is a hand out to the rich, and that NEM 3 will even out the inequity by taxing the crap of rich folks with solar to allow low income folks to get solar on their roof. Now, other utilities around the country are using the same playbook. We could see the end of residential solar in this country, at least for a while.

I fully expect NEM3 to go through as is. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a year or two when reports come out showing how tens of thousand of jobs and residential solar disappear.