Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
The first page does, but only for the month with your annual true-up.

This month happened to be my true up, but the bill doesn't look any different from previous months...

"This Detail of Bill reflects this account's annual True-Up reconciliation. Any charges due are reflected on your monthly PG&E bill ("Energy Statement") which is provided separately and can also be accessed in your PG&E account online.
This is your annual True-Up period. Any unpaid energy charges, taxes or fees are due at this time.
Following the True-Up, generation credits and usage history are reset to zero and energy credits do not carry forward to your next True-Up billing cycle."
 
This month happened to be my true up, but the bill doesn't look any different from previous months...

"This Detail of Bill reflects this account's annual True-Up reconciliation. Any charges due are reflected on your monthly PG&E bill ("Energy Statement") which is provided separately and can also be accessed in your PG&E account online.
This is your annual True-Up period. Any unpaid energy charges, taxes or fees are due at this time.
Following the True-Up, generation credits and usage history are reset to zero and energy credits do not carry forward to your next True-Up billing cycle."
Please post a summary of your first page or see the sticky thread for how to read it.

I made a mistake saying that the total of the MDCs was on the first page, it is actually in the True-Up Evaluation table that likely is on page 13.
1677683386085.png
 
Last edited:
Hope this is the right thread. Been getting quotes for a solar+battery system here in SoCal (SCE territory) and the pricing is just insane. I have quotes from three vendors and the cheapest wants about $5.10/watt, with the highest coming in at over $6/watt. This doesn't include the battery.

It seems the mad rush to get in before the NEM 3.0 deadline is creating tulip mania. My gut tells me prices will crater after NEM 3.0 takes effect and despite the government's meddling, the free market will reach some sort of new equilibrium and there's probably not a real reason to rush into anything.

We placed an order with Tesla (and put down the $250 deposit) over three weeks ago but they have yet to come back with a detailed proposal and official quote.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dave EV
Hope this is the right thread. Been getting quotes for a solar+battery system here in SoCal (SCE territory) and the pricing is just insane. I have quotes from three vendors and the cheapest wants about $5.10/watt, with the highest coming in at over $6/watt. This doesn't include the battery.

It seems the mad rush to get in before the NEM 3.0 deadline is creating tulip mania. My gut tells me prices will crater after NEM 3.0 takes effect and despite the government's meddling, the free market will reach some sort of new equilibrium and there's probably not a real reason to rush into anything.

We placed an order with Tesla (and put down the $250 deposit) over three weeks ago but they have yet to come back with a detailed proposal and official quote.


Yeah, it's getting nuts in California as people try to squeeze into NEM 2.0. Basically anyone that got solar for the cutthroat ~$2.5 per watt that we used to see was making out like bandits.

FYI, here's a quote I received 6 months ago to add 12 panels (no battery, and there is zero new sub-panel or conduit work). A neighbor just got a new quote for solar this week, and it comes out to over $6.50 per watt.

1677785052549.png
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dave EV
Hope this is the right thread. Been getting quotes for a solar+battery system here in SoCal (SCE territory) and the pricing is just insane. I have quotes from three vendors and the cheapest wants about $5.10/watt, with the highest coming in at over $6/watt. This doesn't include the battery.

It seems the mad rush to get in before the NEM 3.0 deadline is creating tulip mania. My gut tells me prices will crater after NEM 3.0 takes effect and despite the government's meddling, the free market will reach some sort of new equilibrium and there's probably not a real reason to rush into anything.

We placed an order with Tesla (and put down the $250 deposit) over three weeks ago but they have yet to come back with a detailed proposal and official quote.

I would disagree that there is no real reason to rush into NEM2.0. Getting NEM3.0 with those terms, unless changed will make nearly every install non-practical from a cost perspective I think. There is just no way to generate enough credits as most NEM1.0/2.0 installs were barely/slightly 100% covered for a lot of people and that's with 1:1 netmetering.

I've stated before, but do folks really expect a person can generate any meaningful credits when it's 25% (or 13% in San Diego) when most folks were barely zeroing out their bills? Batteries help, but with batteries, you're probably going to be still hurting on very hot days.

Not sure how good energysage is anymore, but I'd start there. Find a local place possibly with good success, and negotiate from there. We'll all find out/see in 1.5 months how all these orders turn out to be and if Tesla can deliver.


I feel if you don't get into NEM2.0, most folks simply won't just go solar at all. Remember, you don't need to actually install anything, but the paperwork and everything has to be submitted and in good standing. From that reddit poster as well, if you need to switch installers, that's probably a no go so try not to assume you can get all the paperwork in, then sit for 2.5 years since if your installer is out of business or left the state, the IOU is probably not going to accept that old proposal (all my guessing).

Still, it's not surprising that installers are going to prioritize $$ since there is a limited supply of labor and if NEM3.0 isn't changed, this is probably the last hurrah for CA solar before some folks simply close shop, move out of state.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dave EV and Vines
I would disagree that there is no real reason to rush into NEM2.0. Getting NEM3.0 with those terms, unless changed will make nearly every install non-practical from a cost perspective I think. There is just no way to generate enough credits as most NEM1.0/2.0 installs were barely/slightly 100% covered for a lot of people and that's with 1:1 netmetering.

I've stated before, but do folks really expect a person can generate any meaningful credits when it's 25% (or 13% in San Diego) when most folks were barely zeroing out their bills? Batteries help, but with batteries, you're probably going to be still hurting on very hot days.

Not sure how good energysage is anymore, but I'd start there. Find a local place possibly with good success, and negotiate from there. We'll all find out/see in 1.5 months how all these orders turn out to be and if Tesla can deliver.


I feel if you don't get into NEM2.0, most folks simply won't just go solar at all. Remember, you don't need to actually install anything, but the paperwork and everything has to be submitted and in good standing. From that reddit poster as well, if you need to switch installers, that's probably a no go so try not to assume you can get all the paperwork in, then sit for 2.5 years since if your installer is out of business or left the state, the IOU is probably not going to accept that old proposal (all my guessing).

Still, it's not surprising that installers are going to prioritize $$ since there is a limited supply of labor and if NEM3.0 isn't changed, this is probably the last hurrah for CA solar before some folks simply close shop, move out of state.
I have to agree that the payback periods will be pretty long after NEM 2.0 and I know that many installers simply cannot provide it cheap enough for a reasonable 7 year payback with NEM 3.0 numbers. That means likely people will make other investments that do pencil out and overall much less solar will be installed. Some people will still buy systems with battery backup more commonly included.

We are still 7 months booked out for the systems we have sold so far, and it will soon be 8 months. We are hopeful since we serve lots of clients that are less price sensitive that we will not be hit as hard with the NEM 3.0 drop.

Like @sunwarriors points out, that many of the systems after NEM 3.0 simply won't make financial sense and some PV installers either will have to move or close shop. It is pretty expensive to run a construction business in California.
 
I would disagree that there is no real reason to rush into NEM2.0. Getting NEM3.0 with those terms, unless changed will make nearly every install non-practical from a cost perspective I think. There is just no way to generate enough credits as most NEM1.0/2.0 installs were barely/slightly 100% covered for a lot of people and that's with 1:1 netmetering.

I've stated before, but do folks really expect a person can generate any meaningful credits when it's 25% (or 13% in San Diego) when most folks were barely zeroing out their bills? Batteries help, but with batteries, you're probably going to be still hurting on very hot days.

I don't know. After thinking about this I'm probably going to sit it out. Right now we are in tulip mania, except the difference is we know exactly when the market is going to crash. And from a big picture perspective, I get why NEM 3.0 happened. If I were an SCE/SDGE/PGE ratepayer and I never had the option to purchase solar (condo, apartment, whatever) I sure as heck wouldn't want to subsidize all the people who can by buying electricity off them at above market price.

The willd card is Tesla themselves. We put a $250 deposit down nearly a month ago but have yet to receive the official quote and proposal. At this rate I'm confident they won't get the paperwork submitted before the NEM 2.0 deadline. But a recent post on Reddit confirmed they were literally $20K less than anyone else for a comparably sized system....
 
It seems a path to a good economic return is with Tesla (or possibly Project Solar) like pricing in CA. When I helped neighbors with spreadsheets there is like 40% price difference. Assuming you can get the utilities to sign off, you can over build (with Tesla) a little to handle some of the winter deficit. As others have pointed out batteries aren't going to solve the winter problem. You still need some batteries to deal with night you are likely to need the extra production in the winter.
 
I don't know. After thinking about this I'm probably going to sit it out. Right now we are in tulip mania, except the difference is we know exactly when the market is going to crash. And from a big picture perspective, I get why NEM 3.0 happened. If I were an SCE/SDGE/PGE ratepayer and I never had the option to purchase solar (condo, apartment, whatever) I sure as heck wouldn't want to subsidize all the people who can by buying electricity off them at above market price.

The willd card is Tesla themselves. We put a $250 deposit down nearly a month ago but have yet to receive the official quote and proposal. At this rate I'm confident they won't get the paperwork submitted before the NEM 2.0 deadline. But a recent post on Reddit confirmed they were literally $20K less than anyone else for a comparably sized system....
You should make the best decision for you, I am just saying that you and many others who are on the fence will likely not go solar after it doesnt make financial sense. The planning types of people heard this NEM 3.0 story last year and finalized their contracts. It's only those who literally waited until the final 1-2 months to decide that are seeing these crazy markets and jacked up prices because supply and demand.

Ideally, if you were to plan this out, do your own SLD and paperwork then you can submit your own interconnection agreement, and then you can select your solar installer after this tulip mania.

It is unfortunate that you have bought into the utility line "The reason why your rates are going up is that your neighbor bought solar" Never mind the mismanagement, massive executive bonuses, built in inefficiencies and general climate of DGAF so severe that dozens are dead from their direct negligence.

Couple that with a designed in monopoly and a CPUC that is in bed with the utilities and here we are.
 
It is unfortunate that you have bought into the utility line "The reason why your rates are going up is that your neighbor bought solar" Never mind the mismanagement, massive executive bonuses, built in inefficiencies and general climate of DGAF so severe that dozens are dead from their direct negligence.
Exactly, plus they have no incentive to cut costs and be more efficient
 
Exactly, plus they have no incentive to cut costs and be more efficient
This is the real kicker in my opinion. It basically takes PG&E double to triple the money to maintain our grid and deliver power as it does a comparable grid in other states. Part of this is higher construction costs and wages in California but this does not explain the rest of the difference.

However if you understand that CPUC basically guarantees PG%E a 10% profit more or less each year it all makes sense why the utilities don't care to be efficient or cut costs.

Say that it cost PG&E $2 billion to serve the whole utility network per year, then the profit is $200 million. However if for "Reasons" PGE simply spends $3 billion to do the same service, they now make $300 million at the same 10%.

They have absolutely no reason to run a more efficient business, with a lower price of power because the built-in inefficiencies make them more money. All they have to do is convince the CPUC to keep granting rate increases.

Now they can convince the ratepayers that the reason their bills are so high is the solar boogeyman. However like many lies it has some core of truth. Having a green grid that doesn't run on coal and sometimes makes 100% of the grid's needs with sunshine does cost some amount more than a dirty grid with little to no distributed generation.

However, it is the fault of the rules that there aren't more community solar aggregation programs for apartment dwellers, not the fault of those who sunk tens of thousands into an investment in green energy on their roof. The CPUC created this have vs have not situation by not providing effective ways for everyone whether or not they own property to financially benefit from solar power systems.

Now they can point at that created inequity as a reason that nobody except utilities or rare cases can profit from distributed generation, including those in lower income ranges. Does anyone seriously think that this NEM 3.0 will somehow slow down the utility rate increases?
 
It is unfortunate that you have bought into the utility line "The reason why your rates are going up is that your neighbor bought solar" Never mind the mismanagement, massive executive bonuses, built in inefficiencies and general climate of DGAF so severe that dozens are dead from their direct negligence.

Couple that with a designed in monopoly and a CPUC that is in bed with the utilities and here we are.

Trust me, I'm skeptical of any monopoly, particularly ones which are tied closely to government. But all I have to do is look at caiso.com to check wholesale energy prices. As I type this, the sun is shining and wholesale electricity costs about $80/MWh ($0.08/kWh) here in Orange County. NEM 2.0 solar customers on SCE's TOU-PRIME rate plan are selling juice back to the grid at for about $0.19/kWh. Who's paying for the difference?
 
Trust me, I'm skeptical of any monopoly, particularly ones which are tied closely to government. But all I have to do is look at caiso.com to check wholesale energy prices. As I type this, the sun is shining and wholesale electricity costs about $80/MWh ($0.08/kWh) here in Orange County. NEM 2.0 solar customers on SCE's TOU-PRIME rate plan are selling juice back to the grid at for about $0.19/kWh. Who's paying for the difference?
What were those wholesale prices last night when the sun was not shining? Who is pocketing the difference?
 
Trust me, I'm skeptical of any monopoly, particularly ones which are tied closely to government. But all I have to do is look at caiso.com to check wholesale energy prices. As I type this, the sun is shining and wholesale electricity costs about $80/MWh ($0.08/kWh) here in Orange County. NEM 2.0 solar customers on SCE's TOU-PRIME rate plan are selling juice back to the grid at for about $0.19/kWh. Who's paying for the difference?

Are you ready for a fun read? Because I'm sitting in a Zoom call learning about some new HRIS... which means I have a lot of free time.

An energy consumer (on the same rate plan but without solar) is paying that $0.19/kWh. They would pay that $0.19/kWh regardless if the energy is coming from the utility or coming from a neighbor with solar. As the IOUs are quick to say every single time they discuss rates with the public; the utility doesn't make a profit margin on the generation costs. They simply pass the generation costs through, and the IOUs make all the money on transmission/distribution. In your example, the homeowner with solar has an ROI. But what is missing in your example (and what the IOUs never disclose) is that the utility scale energy generators all have an ROI as well. If you're upset about residential solar, you should also be upset at the utility scale operators.

I've highlighted numerous times (lol the thread is 150 pages!) that a major reason ratepayers have such high retail rates for energy in California is because of the purchase price agreements (PPA) that the utilities agree to in advance. These PPAs guarantee a price for energy produced by a utility scale generator who gets the PPA contract. Since the guarantee is coming from monopolies that are "too big to fail", the IOUs are subventing energy generation plans that allow CAISO's "independent operators" access to very cheap/attractive debt to finance their projects. As long as the project can be completed, the resulting cash flow is a slam dunk. So, lenders will clamor to throw money at the project and they're almost always AAA rated.

The CAISO members argue this PPA approach needs to exist, or else they could never get an energy project off the ground. However, this means planning energy generation capacity becomes massively important, or else the PPAs are a huge waste. If the utilities subsidize too much energy generation, then suddenly there is a ton of supply... and to your point, the wholesale price is wildly disconnected from the PPA price. But ratepayers are paying the higher price no matter what since the utility effectively is locking ratepayers into those rates when they enter in the the PPAs.

You would think, this means the CPUC or PG&E or SCE or blah blah must spend a lot of money making sure they get their demand forecasts accurate right? RIGHT????? But nope, PG&E's lead of energy policy planning has gone on the record quite often saying PG&E's planning exercises were more around executing the desires of California's Office of Planning and Research (OPR) directives. The IOUs argue it's up to the state through cap and trade and other policy setting to establish a target energy generation portfolio. For example, PG&E has never disclosed how it intended to offset Diablo Canyon closing... because to my knowledge they never had a plan; they expected California to come up with that plan. Turns out California didn't have a plan either, so now the state is throwing forgivable loans at Diablo Canyon to keep it open.


Anyway, back on the topic you asked about. We learned during the PG&E bankruptcy, what ends up happening is that the utilities take on a massive liability to pay these locked in rates. These contracts cannot be hedged (who would be dumb enough to take the other side of the PPA rate-contract?). So when the wholesale/spot price of solar tanks, the ratepayers don't see any savings since the rates are locked in. After all, the IOUs get to pass this liability to the ratepayers (with no additional profit margin!). Had PG&E been able to shed some of these liabilities in their bankruptcy, Northern Californians would have seen lower energy bills. But then this would rock the energy market since now it meant PPAs are actually risky... and it would (as CAISO claims) kill the ability for future utility scale generation to be constructed.

So in closing, the CAISO members may be a self-described "independent" group (the I in CAISO), but they're joined at the hip to the IOUs through lucrative PPAs. And yes, folks who put in solar under NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0 are negating their exposure to these PPAs because the homeonwer with solar suddenly doesn't care what PPA the utility entered into... since the homeowner with solar became their own generator.

If you're upset that a neighbor with solar is "selling energy at the retail rate" then you should be equally upset that the utility scale generators are "selling energy at the retail rate". But you should be doubly annoyed at the utility scale generators for creating such bogus planning/execution to result in that mega high retail rate to begin with. The proof is in the pudding... the actual spot-value for the utility scale operator is $0.08/kWh, but they're raking in $0.19 / kWh because there is too much supply.

Personally, I think you should be thanking your neighbors with solar. If they didn't have their own rooftop solar, there would be even more utility scale generators out there. And based on the fact they're private companies looking to make a buck, I would wager had they built generation themselves (instead of the distributed generation atop thousands of homes), those CAISO members would have had even more juicy PPAs. The retail rate would be higher than your $0.19 / kWh right now.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dave EV and iPlug
How is this question relevant?
...If you're upset that a neighbor with solar is "selling energy at the retail rate" then you should be equally upset that the utility scale generators are "selling energy at the retail rate". But you should be doubly annoyed at the utility scale generators for creating such bogus planning/execution to result in that mega high retail rate to begin with. The proof is in the pudding... the actual spot-value for the utility scale operator is $0.08/kWh, but they're raking in $0.19 / kWh because there is too much supply.

Personally, I think you should be thanking your neighbors with solar. If they didn't have their own rooftop solar, there would be even more utility scale generators out there. And based on the fact they're private companies looking to make a buck, I would wager had they built generation themselves (instead of the distributed generation atop thousands of homes), those CAISO members would have had even more juicy PPAs. The retail rate would be higher than your $0.19 / kWh right now.
^this

All solar PV customers are also forced onto TOU plans, so pay high retail prices for electricity during peak demand then get charged full retail rates when the sun is not shining or when they produce but still run a net deficit.
 
Are you ready for a fun read? Because I'm sitting in a Zoom call learning about some new HRIS... which means I have a lot of free time.
Thank you for taking the time to write your reply. It was basically a long way of saying "Energy in California is not really a free market. The utilities and the government have twisted it into the overregulated mess that it is." I already knew this, and there is effectively nothing I can do about it other than pack my bags and move somewhere like Texas (which as we all know comes with a different set of problems). Still, it doesn't change the immediate reality for a consumer such as myself: For much of the day and for most of the year, if I had solar panels on my roof and if I was locked in to NEM 2.0, I would be able to sell electricity back to the grid for over twice the market price. And the federal government cover nearly 1/3 of the upfront cost.