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It is not clear to me how decreasing their own generation would reduce PG&E profits. It didn't increase their revenue, only lowered their costs.
PG&E doesn't own much generation. It purchases generation from others. It does get to apply overhead to that cost of generation it purchases. It also has significant fixed costs for distribution and transmission
When revenue declines, fixed costs stay the same and the overhead allocated to the generation portion is not recovered. Declining revenues significantly reduce profits.
 
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It is not clear to me how decreasing their own generation would reduce PG&E profits. It didn't increase their revenue, only lowered their costs.
PG&E doesn't own much generation. It purchases generation from others. It does get to apply overhead to that cost of generation it purchases. It also has significant fixed costs for distribution and transmission
When revenue declines, fixed costs stay the same and the overhead allocated to the generation portion is not recovered. Your assumption is flawed, since profits decline when revenue declines
 
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If someone adds solar and then buys less from the utility, the utility will have lower revenue, but also lower costs and lower profits as well, so the lower revenue is not necessary shifted to other customers. But the reductions are the result of less revenue due to reduced demand.
Here you contradict your earlier statement, which does make your logic hard to follow.
The utility argument is based on cost shifts not revenue shifts. Since they are guaranteed a rate of return based on assets deployed, their argument has some validity since the only way to maintain a rate of return is to increase revenue..That is why they are saying non solar customers are paying more, thus the cost shift argument. I am not defending the utilities, just pointing out simple economics.
 
PG&E doesn't own much generation. It purchases generation from others. It does get to apply overhead to that cost of generation it purchases. It also has significant fixed costs for distribution and transmission
When revenue declines, fixed costs stay the same and the overhead allocated to the generation portion is not recovered. Declining revenues significantly reduce profits.
Actually, those "fixed" costs are always changing. Billions of dollars invested recently in upgrades and improvements in transmission alone, some of which have been cancelled because peak demand has been growing slower than demand. In part because of solar. The highest momentary demand during the year determines the transmission and generation capacity needed, and hence the level of investment, and hence the interest and maintenance costs. These are reduced by solar and batteries. Over time, they are not fixed costs.

While PG&E does not own the generators, they do pay for them through the pricing, which is also strongly influenced by the demand fluctuations for the same reason.

(Fun fact, earlier this year, during a few hot, high load days PG&E activated a "virtual power plant" consisting of thousands of residential PowerWalls and paid us $2 per kWh that we exported to the grid. Outside of the NEM tariff, and very expensive for PG&E, these VPP events prevented rolling blackouts, a huge net win for all customers. In any case, the cause was insufficient generation and transmission capacity, which had already been reduced by, and was cured by solar and battery customers.)

Distribution costs are included in the monthly minimum billing cost and paid by everyone, including solar customers.

Theoretically, falling revenues would decrease profits, but only if they happened unexpectedly too quickly for downsizing to reduce overhead. But PG&E's revenues and demand have been increasing, so not a factor in reality.
 
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But NEM credits are not purchases of kWh. NEM credits are only allowed only on kWh that the customer imported. It is like the return of a retail purchase, not at all like a wholesale sale as you suggest.

NEM is contractual arrangement where, in effect, the utility stores your excess daytime and summer production, and returns it to you at night and winter. At the annual true-up, a solar customer pays full retail, but only for the power he consumes, net of what he exported.

Exports above what are imported are credited at a lowball wholesale rate. As a result, most solar customers are not energy suppliers, but rather energy lenders and energy consumers.
And a retailer that is constantly taking back returned goods for full retail price, storing them, and reselling goods to other customers is going to make less profit than a retailer that charges a restocking fee for returned goods and sells more goods that were purchased at wholesale cost vs returned goods. The net result is it costs the retailer more money to resale returned goods. The only way for the retailer to maintain its profit margin that accepts returned goods for the same price to increase the retail price.

However you slice it, if it costs the utilities more to compensate solar producers for electricity than they pay for power from other sources, that will be reflected in higher rates.
 
I can't add much to this extensive post but, as I look at my latest SDG&E bill, I am producing excess solar mainly during off-peak times and drawing power from the grid during peak times. With no battery installed, that means I am currently "selling" my excess electricity to SDG&E at ~$0.36 per kWh and "buying it back" at $0.43 per kWh. That's the cost to me for using the grid as my battery.
 
And a retailer that is constantly taking back returned goods for full retail price, storing them, and reselling goods to other customers is going to make less profit than a retailer that charges a restocking fee for returned goods and sells more goods that were purchased at wholesale cost vs returned goods.
True for retailer of physical products. But utilities don't stock kWh in a warehouse, and they don't move their product around by hand and on trucks. Meters and wires are alway there and they cost the same wether you run power through them or not, forward or backwards. Using Amazon's business model to understand NEM is exactly what PG&E wants you to do, because it confuses you and leads to incorrect policy preferences, exactly what they are promoting.

PG&E's only cost caused by NEM is a few milliseconds of billing computer time each month to tally the export and import separately. Oh, and the millions of lobbying dollars (of ratepayer money) they spend trying to kill solar.

If all NEM was cancelled today, solar customers would stop exporting. They would still self consume their own solar, but only during daylight hours. At other times they would still import as they do now. The only difference would be during daylight PG&E would need more generation and transmission online than it has now, increasing costs for everyone. More fossil fuel purchase too, of course. All of this for the same power consumption of all it's customers.

Customers with solar and a battery have an even stronger cost saving effect under NEM. They can actually export power during peak hours, further reducing grid generation and transmission loads. This reduces costs for the utility even more that the fuel savings.
 
True for retailer of physical products. But utilities don't stock kWh in a warehouse, and they don't move their product around by hand and on trucks. Meters and wires are alway there and they cost the same wether you run power through them or not, forward or backwards. Using Amazon's business model to understand NEM is exactly what PG&E wants you to do, because it confuses you and leads to incorrect policy preferences, exactly what they are promoting.

PG&E's only cost caused by NEM is a few milliseconds of billing computer time each month to tally the export and import separately. Oh, and the millions of lobbying dollars (of ratepayer money) they spend trying to kill solar.

If all NEM was cancelled today, solar customers would stop exporting. They would still self consume their own solar, but only during daylight hours. At other times they would still import as they do now. The only difference would be during daylight PG&E would need more generation and transmission online than it has now, increasing costs for everyone. More fossil fuel purchase too, of course. All of this for the same power consumption of all it's customers.

Customers with solar and a battery have an even stronger cost saving effect under NEM. They can actually export power during peak hours, further reducing grid generation and transmission loads. This reduces costs for the utility even more that the fuel savings.
Just so I understand what you are trying to say.
Do you think it doesn't cost the utilities more money to compensate solar producers at the same rate that they purchase the power for vs the utilities getting power from other sources?
If it does cost more money, do you think the utilities don't increase their rates to cover it?
 
True for retailer of physical products. But utilities don't stock kWh in a warehouse, and they don't move their product around by hand and on trucks. Meters and wires are alway there and they cost the same wether you run power through them or not, forward or backwards. Using Amazon's business model to understand NEM is exactly what PG&E wants you to do, because it confuses you and leads to incorrect policy preferences, exactly what they are promoting.

PG&E's only cost caused by NEM is a few milliseconds of billing computer time each month to tally the export and import separately. Oh, and the millions of lobbying dollars (of ratepayer money) they spend trying to kill solar.

If all NEM was cancelled today, solar customers would stop exporting. They would still self consume their own solar, but only during daylight hours. At other times they would still import as they do now. The only difference would be during daylight PG&E would need more generation and transmission online than it has now, increasing costs for everyone. More fossil fuel purchase too, of course. All of this for the same power consumption of all it's customers.

Customers with solar and a battery have an even stronger cost saving effect under NEM. They can actually export power during peak hours, further reducing grid generation and transmission loads. This reduces costs for the utility even more that the fuel savings.
how about the opposite. Suppose residential solar and batteries reduced demand by 50%. What would PG&E rates be then? Their cost structure would be about the same and their revenue would be cut in half
 
how about the opposite. Suppose residential solar and batteries reduced demand by 50%. What would PG&E rates be then? Their cost structure would be about the same and their revenue would be cut in half
What if solar didn't exist and demand increased by 50% to support electrification to meet carbon goals? Would rates drop because of more kWhs are being delivered or would they increase due to lack of supply and the need to build more transmission lines?

It's complicated.
 
What if solar didn't exist and demand increased by 50% to support electrification to meet carbon goals? Would rates drop because of more kWhs are being delivered or would they increase due to lack of supply and the need to build more transmission lines?

It's complicated.
yes, it is complicated. However, PG&E paying retail for solar export does reduce their profit. The whole rate structure needs to be overhauled. Is the CPUC that dumb that they cannot see how conservation is the same as adding solar?
 
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yes, it is complicated. However, PG&E paying retail for solar export does reduce their profit. The whole rate structure needs to be overhauled. Is the CPUC that dumb that they cannot see how conservation is the same as adding solar?
One issue I have with PG&E's rate structure is that they break down the charges per kWh into generation charges and delivery charges. Say I share a transformer with a neighbor. The neighbor's solar is putting out 10 kW, and I am consuming 3 kW. So I'm basically pulling energy from my neighbor, and 7 kW is going out through the transformer and into the distribution lines. But they're still charging me the full delivery charges on electricity that they didn't really deliver. I mean, I guess they did, but it didn't even go through a single one of their transformers. It just hopped on a short section of PG&E lines from one house to another, and was "delivered" less than 500 feet down the street. And they get to charge the same that they charge to deliver one kWh from a distant power plant? This electricity was much cheaper for PG&E to deliver because it didn't have to go through any of their transmission or distribution transformers and didn't cause congestion in their system.
 
Do you think it doesn't cost the utilities more money to compensate solar producers at the same rate that they purchase the power for vs the utilities getting power from other sources?
No. This is because under NEM the utilities do not compensate solar producers at retail for power produced. This is enforced by the NEM rules and implementations.

Unlike commercial generators of power, residential NEM customers are not a source of power, sorry. Here is why: Over the year long NEM "relevant period" customers are net consumers of power, for which they pay retail prices. NEM does let them export power at times when their production exceeds their consumption, and then re-import that same power at other times. These temporary exports and re-imports are billed and credited respectively at retail rates, and so cancel each other out. There is no net purchase of power from these customers over the course of the year. The utilities do not, in net total, purchase any power from solar NEM customers at retail.

So, since there is no net purchase from NEM customers at retail, my answer to your question is "no".

In cases where an occasional NEM customer does, over the year, export more than they import, they are paid a low wholesale price, which is less than the average price they pay commercial producers.

Your question in effect assumes that NEM customers are only exporters, which is counterfactual. The entire point of the design of NEM is to allow import during darkness of power produced during daylight, but doing so in a way that incurs NO EXTRA COST to the utilities or customer. Because export and import are done at different times, it is tempting to look only at the export transaction, as you have done. But doing so you ignore the very nature of NEM and ask questions which serve to illuminate your misunderstanding.

Utilities promote these obfuscations because it helps them lobby for plans which would kill solar. That would increase their profits - even if utilities go with renewable sources, they get to take a profit slice from the revenue and capital investment. If instead, consumers make the investment, utilities loose that slice. They like their monopoly, and prefer not to let their customers become competitors, even if it is only for their customers' own consumption.

If it does cost more money, do you think the utilities don't increase their rates to cover it?
Because NEM does not cost more for any exported NEM solar, this question is moot.

In total, the utility pays less for power purchased from solar customers than it does from commercial produces. The difference is that solar uses no fossil or fissile fuel, which is yet another net benefit for all utility customers.

Solar customer's bills are lower because they use less of what utilities sell. Clearly there are pricing distortions, but NEM is not one of them. Time-of-use rates, and the "progressive" volume pricing are examples. But like all customers, NEM customers are subject to the same monthly minimum charges which reduce and limit those distortions.

As a case in point, I have solar and a PowerWall battery and especially with an EV I am a net consumer of kWh annually. But last year I drew almost no power at all during peak periods. With the new Export Everthing PW option, during this years peak grid load periods I exported a bunch. So, not only does my system let me eliminate my own peak period consumption from the grid, but it lets me help cover my non-solar neighbors usage. This reduces utility net peak load, and hence generation and transmission capacity requirements. The aggregate result of many folks doing this is to reduce, not increase, bills for non-solar customers. Solar reduces utilities' fuel expenses, and batteries reduce capital requirements.

The world's global standard of living has been raised tremendously by using fossil fuels for energy - coal, then oil and gas. We now realize that this is not sustainable. We will eventually either see our standards fall, or we will transition to solar, wind, hydro and other renewable energy sources to reverse the damaging effects of releasing fossil fuel exhaust. NEM has and is helping encourage homeowners to invest in renewables. Killing solar though "revising" NEM would leave us only the utilities to make those investments.
 
One issue I have with PG&E's rate structure is that they break down the charges per kWh into generation charges and delivery charges. Say I share a transformer with a neighbor. The neighbor's solar is putting out 10 kW, and I am consuming 3 kW. So I'm basically pulling energy from my neighbor, and 7 kW is going out through the transformer and into the distribution lines. But they're still charging me the full delivery charges on electricity that they didn't really deliver. I mean, I guess they did, but it didn't even go through a single one of their transformers. It just hopped on a short section of PG&E lines from one house to another, and was "delivered" less than 500 feet down the street. And they get to charge the same that they charge to deliver one kWh from a distant power plant? This electricity was much cheaper for PG&E to deliver because it didn't have to go through any of their transmission or distribution transformers and didn't cause congestion in their system.
Are you describing the NEM1/2 situation or the new NEM3 proposal. If the former, aren't you credited retail for exports, at least those not exceeding your imports?

P.S. Wasn't STS-134 the shuttle flight with Mark Kelly in command?

SW
 
No. This is because under NEM the utilities do not compensate solar producers at retail for power produced. This is enforced by the NEM rules and implementations.

Unlike commercial generators of power, residential NEM customers are not a source of power, sorry. Here is why: Over the year long NEM "relevant period" customers are net consumers of power, for which they pay retail prices. NEM does let them export power at times when their production exceeds their consumption, and then re-import that same power at other times. These temporary exports and re-imports are billed and credited respectively at retail rates, and so cancel each other out. There is no net purchase of power from these customers over the course of the year. The utilities do not, in net total, purchase any power from solar NEM customers at retail.

So, since there is no net purchase from NEM customers at retail, my answer to your question is "no".

In cases where an occasional NEM customer does, over the year, export more than they import, they are paid a low wholesale price, which is less than the average price they pay commercial producers.

Your question in effect assumes that NEM customers are only exporters, which is counterfactual. The entire point of the design of NEM is to allow import during darkness of power produced during daylight, but doing so in a way that incurs NO EXTRA COST to the utilities or customer. Because export and import are done at different times, it is tempting to look only at the export transaction, as you have done. But doing so you ignore the very nature of NEM and ask questions which serve to illuminate your misunderstanding.

Utilities promote these obfuscations because it helps them lobby for plans which would kill solar. That would increase their profits - even if utilities go with renewable sources, they get to take a profit slice from the revenue and capital investment. If instead, consumers make the investment, utilities loose that slice. They like their monopoly, and prefer not to let their customers become competitors, even if it is only for their customers' own consumption.
At this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm on NEM 2 and I get credited (I consider this compensation but I guess you don't) at the same rate as if I had drawn power at the same time (other than NBCs which are pretty small in comparison). To me it is pretty obvious that I'm getting compensated at a higher rate than other sources PG&E has (most of the time).
 
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Are you describing the NEM1/2 situation or the new NEM3 proposal. If the former, aren't you credited retail for exports, at least those not exceeding your imports?
For NEM1, you're credited retail. For NEM2, you're credited retail minus NBCs. Although, I believe that if you don't use as much as you consumed (net exporter), you're paid something close to wholesale?
P.S. Wasn't STS-134 the shuttle flight with Mark Kelly in command?
Yes. I watched that launch from the NASA causeway.
 
This reduces utility net peak load, and hence generation and transmission capacity requirements. The aggregate result of many folks doing this is to reduce, not increase, bills for non-solar customers. Solar reduces utilities' fuel expenses, and batteries reduce capital requirements.
the utility has to have the generation capacity to cover periods when solar is not producing. So it doesn't reduce generation capacity requirements. That investment is still there just not being used. You did not answer my scenario where what if there was enough residential solar to reduce demand 50%. Distribution costs are 3/4 of the bill. Therefore rates would have to go up to cover distribution.
 
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Actually, those "fixed" costs are always changing. Billions of dollars invested recently in upgrades and improvements in transmission alone, some of which have been cancelled because peak demand has been growing slower than demand. In part because of solar. The highest momentary demand during the year determines the transmission and generation capacity needed, and hence the level of investment, and hence the interest and maintenance costs. These are reduced by solar and batteries. Over time, they are not fixed costs.
Call them what you want. I agree, in the long term they are not fixed, but in the short term they are not variable or controllable as revenue declines. That is not an optimal scenaerio as far as forecasting profits.
While PG&E does not own the generators, they do pay for them through the pricing, which is also strongly influenced by the demand fluctuations for the same reason.
i would call those variable costs which go up and down in direct relationship to the power which they purchase. You can easily see this daily change by looking at the CAISO site. We haven't even begun to talk about the generation component for many PG&E customers which in many areas is actually provided by Community Choice Aggregators. Long term that has also had a negative impact on the generation component of their revenue structure. The CCAs have no affected the fees for distribution and transmission by solar customers have had a negative impact on the Distribution and Transmission charges that PG&E can collect.
(Fun fact, earlier this year, during a few hot, high load days PG&E activated a "virtual power plant" consisting of thousands of residential PowerWalls and paid us $2 per kWh that we exported to the grid. Outside of the NEM tariff, and very expensive for PG&E, these VPP events prevented rolling blackouts, a huge net win for all customers. In any case, the cause was insufficient generation and transmission capacity, which had already been reduced by, and was cured by solar and battery customers.)😊
This was not an activity of PG&E or any of the Investor Owned Utilities. The was a program of Tesla Energy who coordinated this and sold this capacity into the marketplace. It has been reported in this forum that some Powerwall owners received as much as $1.00 per kWh for their "generation" or export of battery storage into the grid. I do no know what the rates which were paid to peaker plants for their previous participation in this peak capacity. I have heard, because of these VPPs and grid scale batteries that peakers can no longer be competivive.
Distribution costs are included in the monthly minimum billing cost and paid by everyone, including solar customers.
Yes, the Minimum Delivery Charges are only $10 per month, which is significantly less than the $100 dollars and more that I was paying just for distribution and transmission component of my bill before I had solar.
 
One issue I have with PG&E's rate structure is that they break down the charges per kWh into generation charges and delivery charges.
Unbundled rates are a result of deregulation, when the Investor Owned Utilities were required to divest themselves of generation facilities. This may go back twenty years or more. Technically the IOUs are not allowed to profit from generaton but they are allowed to add significant overhead to the costs of purchasing generation. Separating generation and distribution accommodate customers who have a Community Choice Aggregator or are participants in Direct Access programs. I am not sure why that is an issue?
 
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