Variable TOU pricing is Economics 101 with supply and demand finding a cost point. Building the instructure to support an unconstrained demand and generation facilities that are idle 98% of the time would drive the costs even higher.
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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion
- Thread starter jjrandorin
- Start date
I think that you are underestimating how many lights modern homes have and how quickly it adds up. Here is what generally happens in my house at sunset:
- 5 - Outside lighting
- 6 - Hallway
- 4 - Living Room
- 6 - Kitchen
- 3 - Dining Table
- 24 Total
There is still a reluctance to go to LED lighting for a large amount of households as the cost was $0.60/bulb versus $5+/bulb and considering how quickly LEDs would be pay for themselves in energy savings isn't considered. A lot of people likely have a stock pile of incandescent bulbs purchased prior to the California ban and before the US ban this August and will be forced to switch, so maybe 5 years before the vast majority of incandescent bulbs are gone.
When I started switching my lights to LEDs I went slowly at first as I was unsure of how they would operate especially with a lot of my lights on 3-way dimmer switches. Once I was comfortable that the first batch of replacements worked ok then my frugal nature kicked in and I didn't want to throw perfectly good lights into the trash and had to keep telling myself that it was the right financial thing to do. BTW, I had to buy a couple of new on/off presence detection switches that would work with LEDs because the originals without a neutral wire (and this is missing in a lot of switch receptables) operated by allowing a small of current running through the bulbs in the "off" state" to generate enough operating voltage to run the ultrasound sensor. I also needed to replace a couple of the dimmers that did not play well with the new LED panel ceiling lights that I installed and had to be swapped out for ones that could handle LEDs.
Well, there is no point in arguing about the meaning of "alot" - a 500w house load is is .5kw - my house almost never, somehow, goes below 1kw even if I turn everything off. But my point was comparing it to other things.
All the lights in my house are also, let's say, 500watts. The A/C is like 5,000watts. I can go up to 10,000 watts plugging in my model 3. My point was that people turn on their lights in winter too, but without that massive A/C blast the grid handles it easily.
And, more to the point, tiered pricing really assumes a flexibility that the customers don't have.
The CAISO demand curve barely changes over time. My point is that there is no such real world thing as "unconstrained" electrical demand.
What we have, and you can see it on the CAISO demand curve, is people don't want to hang out in 100 degree houses. For the crazy TOU pricing to be valid, I would like to see some evidence that half of the So Cal Edison customers gladly run their houses as saunas due to variable TOU pricing, while LADWP customers go out in the neighborhood and turn on their A/C and the A/C of all the neighbors just for giggles.
Two utilities, no variance in usage curve.
And that is why the Winter Peak/Off-Peak rates have very little differential and the Summer Peak/Off-Peak rates are much higher.
People have a lot, but not total, flexibility in their electricity usage. They can choose to use incandescent or LED lighting, they can choose to have every light on the house on or they can only light the section of the house they are in, they can chose to run the dishwasher/laundry, keep the A/C at 60, bake cookies, cakes, breads and charge their EV during Peak or during Off-Peak.
The pricing is there to encourage people to make choices that result in less usage during Peak. What is your proposed alternative?
The grid should not be paid for by volumetric pricing, it should be an assets of the State of California and then just charge people the cost of the electricity.
During the PG&E bankruptcy there was an option to buy it, but that didn't happen.
Then, you have to figure out new incentives for rooftop solar and home energy storage, because everyone's electricity bill will be so low that rooftop solar will no longer be cheaper than just buying the electricity.
I mean, you can't even find incandescent bulbs to buy, other than specialty ones, and again, the CAISO demand curve is caused by A/C, its not caused by how many bulbs people have on or not. Of course people already make choices on laundry and charging EVs.
But to seriously moderate one's electrical usage, enough to justify the double or triple price, its A/C or nothing.
Is not leaving 20 bulbs on vs. 7. In the example above the bulbs didn't even equal one kwh! Leaving the house in total darkness and switching to candlelight saves like $30 a month.
Its all A/C, and I submit that its not an elastic, or fair, structure to set up pricing around A/C usage.
PG&E is one step ahead of you. They actually recommend you go jump in a pool or hang out at the Library.
Energy Usage & Tips
How to reduce energy usage in the workplace and how to reduce energy usage at home.
www.pge.com
Dang, dude is ballin' with a house that has a long-azz hallway with 6 lights.
New construction (2008) loves putting in a lot of in ceiling lights and then it just illuminates the area immediately below, so you get a lot. Still my prior house that was originally built in 1911 that I renovated had two overhead flush mount ceiling lights each with 3 bulbs, so still 6.
New construction (2008) loves putting in a lot of in ceiling lights and then it just illuminates the area immediately below, so you get a lot. Still my prior house that was originally built in 1911 that I renovated had two overhead flush mount ceiling lights each with 3 bulbs, so still 6.
I still don't know why people refuse to get LED lights. That joke about "how many X does it take to change a lightbulb" will be out-dated for the next generation. They'll be like "wtf would you change a light bulb?"
Thats like the biggest reason I put them in my house when I moved in, in 2013. I have either 38 or 39 ceiling can lights, and they were all 60w floodlights. A week after I moved in, I bought all LED floodlights, whichever wattage is the 60w Equivalent floodlight. Same shape, etc. I think they are 10-11w each or something. I had to change some of the dimmers to be compatible, but did that too. They were much more expensive than they are now, but I really wanted to both cut my electric bill, and hopefully never have to change them again.
Some of the lights (the stairway ones) I couldnt reach and had to get something to be able to change high, ceiling mounted lights. I only wanted to do it once if possible. Most of these lights will probably outlive me now, lol. I changed em in 2013, so 10 years ago, and havent had to touch a single one since.
I think the top two are, more expensive and the government can't tell me what to do. Beyond that, there is some concern about the color temp, reliability, flicker and the uglier look most of this due to first impressions from the first generation of LEDs, but the uglier look is still there in a lot of cases. I have been seeing a number of replacements with selectable color temperature and the Gen Z's love their full RGB networked bulbs.
I have had a few problems with bad LED bulbs out of the box (maybe 2 out of 40-50) and I do have an under counter LED bar that creates flicker in my webcam (even with 60hz filtering enabled) but my overhead LED bulbs generate no flicker.
I really want to replace the fluorescent PL-C 4-pin in ceiling bulbs in my kitchen with LEDs as they die every two years or so, but I can't find a suitable replacement that doesn't look like crap or cost a fortune. Ideally, I would replace the whole ballast with an LED fixture, but I don't want to rip up the ceiling.
Im exactly here on this, with you 100%. I have several can lights that are gx41 (im sure its the same 4 pin thing you are talking about). I was told that the code at the time required a certain percentage of the lighting to be these bulbs, to prevent homeowners from plugging in incandescent lighting in those cans. I havent found a decent retrofit.
Im also not into colored LEDs etc, but I feel like the color temperature is a personal decision when it comes to white light warmth. I buy all "cool white" (4000k) color bulbs. Anyway, enough off topic from me... if you find a retrofit you like, please PM me (lol).
I replaced 4 of them with wafer lights in a little under an hour. Abandoned the old cans in the attic and wafer lights fit in the old hole perfectly.
RKCRLR
Active Member
This is quite a point of frustration for me. I started building my house in 2007 and 50% of the lighting in the kitchen and bathrooms was required to be high efficacy. The code would not allow me to install standard fixtures with screw in CFLs. I had to put in fixtures that would only accept high efficacy fluorescent lights which were a lot more expensive. Additionally, I had to put in way more lighting than I actually needed (I wound up putting some tube fluorescent lights on top of my cabinets) to meet the 50% rule because I had some pendant lights that would accept standard bulbs. Now California is banning the sale of fluorescent lights so I'll have to rip out those fixtures they forced me to install or convert them to accept standard bulbs, or go with expensive specialized LED bulbs that will work with the ballasts (which haven't worked very good for me so far). Additionally, my pendant lights appear to overheat the LED lights and they don't last very long in them.
I'll probably wind up bypassing the ballasts and using adapters to convert from fluorescent to screw-in LED bulbs. I've done this on a few fixtures (sometimes it isn't easy to get at the wires) and it works OK if you install lower profile bulbs. I have vaulted ceilings and I'll have to get up high on a ladder to do this in some areas, I'm hoping I don't kill myself.
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GE used to make a line of LED flood lights as direct replacements for GX 4-pin fluorescent lights. They work well enough, but have very dim flickering after turning off for a few minutes as the ballast denergizes.
Philips has a product too, but the bulbs aren't flood light shaped, but they also don't flicker after turning off.
I decided it was easier to use these bulbs rather than redoing the cans and bypassing the ballast.
Philips has a product too, but the bulbs aren't flood light shaped, but they also don't flicker after turning off.
I decided it was easier to use these bulbs rather than redoing the cans and bypassing the ballast.
RKCRLR
Active Member
I tried some similar bulbs in my bathroom fan that also has florescent bulbs with a ballast that is difficult to reach. They flat out didn't work. They would only work with specific ballasts.
I think you should look into the "wafer" lights as @hayhayday calls them. They replace the entire old can/ballast/whatever. They are way easier than you'd expect, and you'll never have flickering or stupid 4-pin stuff ever again. Take the time to put in some high-quality dimmer switches and you'll be golden.
You basically remove all the old equipment, and end up with a new LED downlight for $25. These come with their own J-Box for integrating into your existing splices. And have color temperature selectors so you can match everything to other lighting in the home. If your old fixtures have a 3", 4", 6", or 8" hole, it's literally a 10 minute job to remove the old can, get the old copper wiring and jam it into the new light's connector. I guess if you have big hands you'll struggle with the tiny holes. They're also IC rated and wet-rated so they can go just about anywhere. Very clean/easy swap IMO.
I guess if your existing light fixtures have some caulking to seal up around your existing recessed lights, you'll spend some time with a heat gun and scraping. Or just hole-saw a bigger circle around your older light fixture heh.
The only downside as some have noted is the "wafer" lights usually have little to no baffles since they are rather thin. So if you love the deep baffled look, these may not work so well.
Did this in my parents’ house a few years ago with a similar product. Affordable upgrade and everything worked out great.
RKCRLR
Active Member
As I mentioned I've installed adapters in some of my fixtures. The hardest part is removing the can and getting at the wires that go into the ballast so you can bypass it. It gets a little scary when you're balancing yourself on a 15' step ladder with both hands over your head and fighting with stuff. If I were to replace all my fluorescent can lights I'd have $500 in wafer lights. I can get all the adapters for $40 and about $100 for the bulbs and it is about the same amount of work. Plus now if the bulb fails I can just get another standard LED bulb, I don't think the wafer bulbs are replaceable.
My gripe is that I have to do all this in the first place. If I were allowed to use normal lights and CFLs I could just now replace the CFLs with LED bulbs. Additionally, they now consider fluorescent lights hazardous waste so I have to take them to a recycling center (they won't pick them up).
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