David Silverman, president of American Atheists on CNN with Tesla

[bonnie]

Sometimes thing 'just are' and you choose what you feel in your heart to be true. A totally unsatisfactory answer, I understand. A foster daughter, years ago, wanted to understand why life had happened to her the way it had. She wanted answers & there were none worthwhile to give her. I had her make a mobius strip and told her to mark the inside red and the outside green ... and of course she found there is only one side. "How? I dunno. But you're holding it, aren't you. It just is."

My personal beliefs fall on spiritual, rather than religious (though raised Episcopalian). I don't necessarily believe in 'God as a single being', but rather that energy that connects all of us. Read 'Gödel, Esher, Bach' and try to find a reason why nature, music, and math have so much in common, why the fibonacci series repeatedly shows up in nature, why why why ... without something larger than us having had a hand in it all.

 

[ggies07]

Sometimes thing 'just are' and you choose what you feel in your heart to be true. A totally unsatisfactory answer, I understand. A foster daughter, years ago, wanted to understand why life had happened to her the way it had. She wanted answers & there were none worthwhile to give her. I had her make a mobius strip and told her to mark the inside red and the outside green ... and of course she found there is only one side. "How? I dunno. But you're holding it, aren't you. It just is."

My personal beliefs fall on spiritual, rather than religious (though raised Episcopalian). I don't necessarily believe in 'God as a single being', but rather that energy that connects all of us. Read 'Gödel, Esher, Bach' and try to find a reason why nature, music, and math have so much in common, why the fibonacci series repeatedly shows up in nature, why why why ... without something larger than us having had a hand in it all.

Thanks for the book suggestion, looks interesting. I'll check it out.

 

[thekomet]

Brilliant Nigel! You are right on all counts

 

[Canuck]

Sometimes thing 'just are' and you choose what you feel in your heart to be true. A totally unsatisfactory answer, I understand.

I am an atheist and that's a very satisfactory answer to me. I can relate to it 100%. In fact, that's what keep me "somewhat" believing. I agree with what Christoper Hitchens said at the end of his "60 Minutes" interview:

"Is there anything that could change your mind in your weakened state?" Kroft asked.

"Well, I ought to never say there's nothing would change my mind," Hitchens replied. "So, shall I just say that no evidence has - or argument - has yet been presented that would change my mind. But I like surprises."

As you will note from my signature, I'd never say there's nothing that would change my mind. I'm quite certain there is no god. But I too like surprises. If that means god will damn me to hell for eternity because I did not believe, then so be it. I live with morals and integrity (and you don't need religion for that - quite the contrary) and no god worth worshiping would damn me to hell. I also do not believe in Pascal's wager, but that's a whole other issue.

 

[ggr]

I am definitely NOT religious.

I'm mystified. You say you are NOT religious, but then follow up with:

... But I am fervently Christian. I pray daily to a God I KNOW exists because He hears my prayers and He answers them. (No I have not heard His voice with my ears, but I have heard Him and seen Him through the wondrous creation around me.) I also fervently believe in science. After all, the truth in science is simply thinking God's truth after Him. He is the Inventor of all science. He gave us science. I do not find any incompatibilities between good science and God or His word given to us in the Bible. I have a Masters degree in theology and Christian education and I have been driving my Tesla for more than a year.

What, please clarify, would you say WAS religious?

 

[Canuck]

I pray daily to a God I KNOW exists because He hears my prayers and He answers them.

I guess I could say the same thing without even praying. I certainly am blessed. I have a loving wife, great children, wealth, my health, and the list goes on and on. But what about all those less fortunate than us who pray to god, and are good people, but live in misery through no fault of their own? Does god not answer their prayers?

 

[HVM]

I pray daily to a God I KNOW exists because He hears my prayers and He answers them. ...

I guess I could say the same thing without even praying. I certainly am blessed. I have a loving wife, great children, wealth, my health, and the list goes on and on. But what about all those less fortunate than us who pray to god, and are good people, but live in misery through no fault of their own? Does god not answer their prayers?

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer:
http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703(05)00649-6/abstract

"Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

Apparently Einstein was reading a book by Velikovsky with he was found dead.

Velikovsky caused quite a stir in the scientific community in the 50's and 60's but since recently reading his books my faith has come into question.

I'm now leaning more towards Intelligent Design, the stuff that created us, nature and the TESLA.:wink: ( Thanks Elon )

Ken Miller's Lecture of Intelligent Design (Catholic scientists)

 

[jerry33]

I gave up on being religious when I realized that 1) It was all about wealth and power to the leaders, and 2) Thinking was actively discouraged.

And as others have said, there has been no reasoning put forth so far concerning creation and a creator that passes Occam's Razor. Living in harmony with nature and society doesn't require believe in imaginary sky creatures. I'd suggest that belief in them is probably detrimental. Instead it requires science and critical thinking because the more understanding you have about how nature works, the more likely you are able to live in harmony with it. It certainly doesn't mean abandoning technology, only making choices between technologies based on the best available information.

My opinion is that gods and demons are really just an anthropomorphic way of describing mental conditions. Gods and demons are created by the mind as a reaction to various stimuli and are just a visualization aid for euphoria, depression, etc. because it's easier for many people to visualize that way.

 

[Beckler]

Hubbard has proved, without a doubt, that in this day and age it's STILL possible to build a thriving religion around the most absurd and shadiest of premises.

Well but the scientology charlatanism is fringe. And if you look at the christian phenomenon over the centuries, I don't know the numbers but if not declining, it's way tamer today than what those psychos used to do and claim. Even from a century ago. A lot more church-going, the way of speaking, etc. It's all fading. I don't think it can withstand modern times and understanding.

It seems to me from your posts in this thread that you have a big problem with anyone who believes in God? Overall there's a lot more tolerance in this thread (on both sides).

Not at all my friend, even though it may come across as such sometimes. I'm not trying to attack believers but rather their claims of truth or knowledge; or those who would try to push their particular fantasy onto me. I do see some as victims of con men however - be that 2000-year old ones or modern day televangelist criminals.

 

[Chipper]

I have often said I am not religious, but I am a Christian. The difference is "religious" people typically have rules and regulations that they live by. These rules define their relationship with God--stay within the rules and you are right with God. Break the rules and He is angry with you. These people do not have a correct understanding of what the Bible teaches. Religions inevitably fail. Relationship does not fail because it is based on what God has already done and not on what I do. When I say God answers my prayers, that does not mean I get everything I ask for. Sometimes His answer is NO or maybe a Not Yet. Need evidence for God? How about more than 300 prophecies concerning the Messiah that are written in the Old Testament and fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Just coincidence? For me, the evidence is sufficient for my puny brain. God accepts me as I am because I have placed my faith in Him and the work His Son already accomplished.
What ANY of this has to do with owning a Tesla...well...I am unsure, but I find the discussions fascinating!

 

[Auzie]

I find it highly likely that there is some underlying order that is outside of my grasp and awareness. I also think that the personal awareness can be expanded and that the expanded awareness provides different perspectives. Since particular state of consciousness determines the reality, shifts in consciousness may take us to a different reality. Learning how to control this process (shifts) may be the pathway to different realities.

There are many other interesting theories that I find likely and spend my time on. Rather than talking about these I will tell a small story about my children and religion, it might be more entertaining.

Religious beliefs and organized religions that I am vaguely aware of (not many) fall far outside of my interests, so I never took time to learn more about any religion, nor can I see any possibility or likelihood of becoming interested in organized religions. I could say that I am repelled rather than attracted by organized religions. The history of frequent abuse of power by some religious entities, the power hierarchy implied by religion, the abdication of personal power in the face of some higher authority, the illogicality of thought in religion are my main points of disagreements with organized religions.

Someone mentioned that we should not impose our beliefs on others. I agree with that but find it difficult to reconcile that with parenting. What do we do with children and religion? As I was always free from religious beliefs, so I thought my children should be equally free. Perhaps I am imposing freedom from religion on them, most likely I am.

This small talk happened when my children were around 6 and 8. One day after picking them up from school, they mentioned that they had religious classes. Hearing that felt like someone knifed me in the stomach and twisted the knife.

When enrolling children at the school, I wrote 'no religion' in appropriate box.

So I asked: How come you are in religious classes, who decided on that?
Children: Mrs.X (teacher) said that everyone has a religion and we had to sign up for our religion so we did.

At this point I felt like my children were violated. Knife was twisting deeper in.

Me: You do not have to sign up for a religion. You do not have to go to religious classes. I will go and speak with Mrs.X about that.
Children: But we want to go.
Knife going deeper.
Me, now scared: Why do you want to go to religious classes?
Children: We do not want to sit on our own, all other kids signed up for something.
Me: So there are no children with no religion at your school?
Children: There are Catholics, Protestants, Church Of England and Muslims. Everyone is something, only us is nothing, so we have to sit on our own when everyone else is in their class. We do not want to sit on our own.
Me: So what did you choose?
Children: We signed up as Catholics. All cool kids are there. We want to be with them.
Deep breathing by me: Ok, you can go to catholic classes if you want. But remember, whenever you want to stop going, just let me know and I will speak with Mrs.X. What do they teach you in religious classes?
Children: Nun tells us stories about Jesus.

Now I felt a bit better, there is no harm in hearing few Jesus stories from nun.

My children attended religious classes for a semester then dropped out of them. There was a new kid at school, nonreligious kid, and my children chose to play with a new kid rather than attend religious classes.

I still feel discontent with intrusion of religion into the public education system, but it seems that I am outnumbered.

 

[bonnie]

I have often said I am not religious, but I am a Christian. The difference is "religious" people typically have rules and regulations that they live by. These rules define their relationship with God--stay within the rules and you are right with God. Break the rules and He is angry with you. These people do not have a correct understanding of what the Bible teaches.

While I've already stated I'm not religious, I find this an unfair characterization. Sure, we can come up with examples where this is true, but that has not been my experience overall. My experience with those close to me is that, for them, church is a place to interact with community and, if on the wrong track, to find help and guidance going forward.

I could give some specific examples, but in dealing with a family member with Borderline Personality Disorder, her church has been incredible help. I'm not so quick to condemn the institution.

 

[Zapped]

Ken Miller's Lecture of Intelligent Design (Catholic scientists)

Rather inaccurate mixing of terms and apples to oranges comparisons in this video, certainly not Intelligent Design.
My understanding is that Intelligent Design has no moral, spiritual or religious attributes. To me it's more like the genesis project from the Star Trek movie, an alternative to the Theory of Evolution. (dare I jest ...maybe the Enterprise did come back in time :wink

Here is legal perspective
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/defense-intelligent-design.html

That said I think there are a lot of practicing religious people that also believe in Evolutionary Theory.

 

[Beryl]

@Auzie
Your children felt compelled to attend classes on religion that were not mandated. They attended some and chose stop attending. No harm, no foul. You do realize that some children suffer through the completion of mandated subjects and topics that (parents and taxpayers) prefer not be offered in public schools. Right?

 

[SR22pilot]

MS physics, MS mathematics, BS chemistry, 30 years in semiconductor industry and a Christian. I see no conflict but get asked about it a lot. Science answers how. Religion answers why. That's a bit simplistic but is the basis of my belief system. I have this underlying feeling that it means something. Without God, existentialism is correct. Pain, love etc. will mean nothing once you are dead. I feel there is meaning in love and meaning in trying to be a better person and I don't think it all ceases when I die. I feel we are very ignorant when it comes to the universe. Recent work on data as a fundamental concept is fascinating. The idea that a bit may have a size is interesting. Could this universe be a simulation - fascinating.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I've always felt that God came about when humans felt lonely in their existence and needed a crutch to explain away natural (and sometimes, man-made) disasters or other conditions that they couldn't comprehend. Free Will is also a man-made concept towards this end in my opinion.

Religion was a natural consequence when an order needed to be established among civilizations. In many cases, it was for the good. As said above, we are largely creatures of the environments we were born into and brought up in, so, a deep rooted belief in our parents'/family's religion is natural.

Believing in a supernatural force is just fine from a spiritual point of view but, when we give such a force a name - Christ, Allah, Vishnu, etc. - and argue / maim / kill one another in trying to prove whose God's better, we degenerate into savage beasts (is that in itself a religion-driven way of looking at it?!)

My wife's spiritual although she uses the Hindu gods to put a face to it. She grew up going to a Christian Missionary school and is just as comfortable stopping by a church to pray as she is to go to a Hindu temple. She's perfectly at harmony with my attitude as a non-believer who will willingly accompany her to those places of worship to take in all the peace, architecture and order that such places typically offer.

My approach to life is to "live-and-let-live" and I use science as a framework of reference for that just as someone deeply religious may use their God for the same purpose.

I wish all folks who believe in God and Religion and/or Science and Atheism can embrace the beliefs of others the same way.

 

[Auzie]

@Auzie
Your children felt compelled to attend classes on religion that were not mandated. They attended some and chose stop attending. No harm, no foul. You do realize that some children suffer through the completion of mandated subjects and topics that (parents and taxpayers) prefer not be offered in public schools. Right?

If they just stuck to 'no religion' as a choice, in their sharp little minds they evaluated the high odds of being labelled as freaks.

I think there is no place for religious classes in a public education system, as such system imposes predominant views on minorities. Status quo is difficult to change, minorities are by definition outnumbered.

 

[Canuck]

Without God, existentialism is correct. Pain, love etc. will mean nothing once you are dead.

Really? I am "without god". I guess therefore, in your view, all the love I gave to my wife and children will mean nothing once I am dead. I couldn't disagree more.

I look at it the opposite. I deal with pain, love, etc. as part of the nature of human existence and try to make the right choices, and do good things, within that framework solely because it is the right thing to do, and as an end in itself. I do not do good because of god, an "afterlife", or being afraid of being condemned to hell. I think if you're doing good things only for those purposes, then your deeds lack integrity and sincerity. I'm always amazed when people say "if you're an atheist then you can kill, rape, etc. (or whatever else is bad) and not fear consequences. That one just blows me away. If I needed to worry about god punishing me for raping or killing someone, then I must be a complete sociopath. I could never do those things because they are wrong and I could not live with myself. I don't need a god to tell me what is right or wrong. In fact the Bible stipulates the treatment of slaves, without even considering slavery as being unethical.

 

[NigelM]

I think there is no place for religious classes in a public education system, as such system imposes predominant views on minorities. Status quo is difficult to change, minorities are by definition outnumbered.

I lean towards agreement, despite my own faith; there's no reason for the state to 'force' a specific religion on kids. Most religious institutions (churches etc) run free education classes where those that want can take their kids.

Side story: My parents were both pretty anti-religion, attending church was strictly limited to weddings and funerals in our household; heck, my father even refused to have any of us baptized. The funny thing was that my siblings and I all got voluntarily baptized when each of us was in our thirties, all Christian but three different denominations. My father is happy his kids made their own choices and respects them.

- - - Updated - - -

I wish all folks who believe in God and Religion and/or Science and Atheism can embrace the beliefs of others the same way.

Dont forget those of us who believe in God and science; I drive my Tesla to church.

 

[SR22pilot]

Really? I am "without god". I guess therefore, in your view, all the love I gave to my wife and children will mean nothing once I am dead. I couldn't disagree more.

After you are dead, explain how it will have meaning to you. It may have meaning to others while they are alive but that will end when their existence ends. My point is about meaning to you. If you simply cease to exist then nothing can continue to have meaning to you after you die. It certainly has meaning to you now but only while you exist. Even if you cure cancer and that great achievement lives on after your death, it will cease to have meaning to you once you have ceased to exist.

I wish I could remember the title of the story. A man is on a beach and the sun gets in his eyes so he taks a gun and kills another man. He is condemned to death. Awaiting his execution he is belligerent to the priest who has come to see him. When scolded to act appropriately he says "What are you going to do? Kill me twice?" Sorry for any inaccuracies in my recollection. I read the story over 40 years ago.

i'm not sure a Tesla forum is a place for a deep philosophical debate on religion. I merely stated my beliefs as others have done in this thread. Usually it is the evangelicals who react so strongly. I love a good philosophical debate should you wish to continue offline. I do ask that it be a friendly debate understanding that we are each probably good people who merely disagree on a particular thing.

- - - Updated - - -

NigelM - I too don't want religion crammed down anyone's throat. Of course I seem to be such a strange mix when it comes to my beliefs such that I generally upset everyone left or right. I believe strongly in separation of church and state. I want government out of the marriage business. Marriage is a religious act. The government can cover the legal side with civil contracts A, B and C. A could be traditional with shared everything but morality clauses for dividing assets on dissolution. B could be similar but with 50/50 spit no fault. C could be with assets remaining distinct. Couples would sign one upon civil union. If they choose to also be married then they could find a church of their choice but it wouldn't have any legal meaning; just a spiritual one.