Decreasing rated range.

[tomas]

Hi Guys

Newbie here...bought my MS only a week back

Had 6000 miles on it when I bought it..

Currently has 6500 miles or so

Rated range was 265 when I took delivery of the car

Yesterday when I range charged the car with 5 mins remaining the rated range was 263 miles

Today I charged to 90% and my rated range is 236 miles...usually when I charge to 90% the rated range is 240 miles

Questions:

My charging ends at 5am and when I checked this morning it was 9am ...so do you guys think that it would have dropped from 240 to 236 miles in 4 hours?

I will be using MS for long trips once every month ...is it o. k to range charge every month?

Yesterday when I was driving I noticed that my projected range was more than rated range...is that possible...I had about 50 miles left on the rated range when I reached home but projected range was 75 miles or so... which of this is more dependable?


Just wondering.


Thanks

Yes it could have dropped from 240 to 236 in 4 hours. Especially if you do not have energy savings turned on in the display settings.

It's OK to range charge, but you must time that charge to complete just before you leave. It is not good to leave battery at 100% for significant time. What I do sometimes is do 90% charge, and then 1 hour before I'm planning to leave for long trip, reset to range charge and begin charging again. With NEMA 14-50 charging, it takes just about an hour, so it is perfect.

If you go to range application and set "average", projected range is based upon your average consumption over the last 5, 15, or 30 miles depending on how you have range chart set. Otherwise, it is based on your current energy usage as of this instant, and can be all over the map. It is normal for projected range to vary a great deal. I would never use it as a reliable basis for remaining range... rated is MUCH better for that purpose. Rated generally means that if you are driving at an average of 300 wh/mi (the middle line on the energy chart), you will achieve the remaining rated mileage. Once you get used to it, you can net up or down from there based upon experience.

I really suggest you READ the owners manual from beginning to end. Twice. It is very helpful.

 

[Gear]

If you go to range application and set "average", projected range is based upon your average consumption over the last 5, 15, or 30 miles depending on how you have range chart set. Otherwise, it is based on your current energy usage as of this instant, and can be all over the map. It is normal for projected range to vary a great deal. I would never use it as a reliable basis for remaining range... rated is MUCH better for that purpose. Rated generally means that if you are driving at an average of 300 wh/mi (the middle line on the energy chart), you will achieve the remaining rated mileage. Once you get used to it, you can net up or down from there based upon experience.

I wouldn't say projected isn't reliable. If the rest of your trip is similar to what you've driven so far, the average setting should be a good indication of how much farther you can go. A good example of how I use instant is the last several miles to my house. It's uphill for the last 20 miles (something like a 5000' elevation change) and the grade keeps getting steeper. I can have my cruise control set at 60mph for much of it. Rated range and Projected range set to "Average" are both pretty useless for this scenario, obviously, as I could never hope to achieve 300wh/mi uphill like that and the average setting, even with 5 miles selected, doesn't keep me updated quickly enough of my current usage with the constantly increasing grade.

They're all tools and they work well if you know how to use them.

 

[tomas]

I wouldn't say projected isn't reliable. If the rest of your trip is similar to what you've driven so far, the average setting should be a good indication of how much farther you can go. A good example of how I use instant is the last several miles to my house. It's uphill for the last 20 miles (something like a 5000' elevation change) and the grade keeps getting steeper. I can have my cruise control set at 60mph for much of it. Rated range and Projected range set to "Average" are both pretty useless for this scenario, obviously, as I could never hope to achieve 300wh/mi uphill like that and the average setting, even with 5 miles selected, doesn't keep me updated quickly enough of my current usage with the constantly increasing grade.

Well, in your situation of driving home, unless you have charging options during that 20 miles, I'd say ANY projections (rated, projected, average, instant) are pretty worthless because if you didn't start that 20 mi with enough, you are well and truly screwed! And, that's one of those owner-by-owner situations that requires newbie owners to ALWAYS drive with a huge surplus of charge until they are familiar enough with the car to know what they can and can't do.

I'll stick to my assertion that for a new driver, the best thing to do is watch "rated" and see how you perform against it in various circumstances until you get some intuition for your range and driving patterns. Projected is for experienced owners, or those who want to do analytics.

 

[taurusking]

Yes it could have dropped from 240 to 236 in 4 hours. Especially if you do not have energy savings turned on in the display settings.

It's OK to range charge, but you must time that charge to complete just before you leave. It is not good to leave battery at 100% for significant time. What I do sometimes is do 90% charge, and then 1 hour before I'm planning to leave for long trip, reset to range charge and begin charging again. With NEMA 14-50 charging, it takes just about an hour, so it is perfect.

If you go to range application and set "average", projected range is based upon your average consumption over the last 5, 15, or 30 miles depending on how you have range chart set. Otherwise, it is based on your current energy usage as of this instant, and can be all over the map. It is normal for projected range to vary a great deal. I would never use it as a reliable basis for remaining range... rated is MUCH better for that purpose. Rated generally means that if you are driving at an average of 300 wh/mi (the middle line on the energy chart), you will achieve the remaining rated mileage. Once you get used to it, you can net up or down from there based upon experience.

I really suggest you READ the owners manual from beginning to end. Twice. It is very helpful.

Tomas

I have read the manual twice... Thanks for the advice on the range charging.

I always set my range application on average projected range.

My question was ...what if my screen showed rated range of 50 miles and average projected range of 75 miles...Will I still get 75 miles if driven under same condition (speed, wind resistance, no ups and downs on the road etc)?

 

[Denarius]

Tomas

I have read the manual twice... Thanks for the advice on the range charging.

I always set my range application on average projected range.

My question was ...what if my screen showed rated range of 50 miles and average projected range of 75 miles...Will I still get 75 miles if driven under same condition (speed, wind resistance, no ups and downs on the road etc)?

If driving conditions are identical then yes, you will get the projected range.

 

[Bighorn]

Rated miles account for a fixed 280Wh/mile, so if you have 50 rated miles remaining, there are 14kWh of energy remaining. In order to go 75 miles on that, you'd need to maintain an efficiency of 187Wh/m which is not reasonable unless you are going down hill, have a tailwind or are going rather slow on a flat surface. 187 Wh/m equates to getting almost 400 miles from a full charge, which while doable is extraordinarily rare.

 

[Whom]

My current stats: S60, 22K miles, 100% charge give 193.7 rated / 220.8 ideal. B-pack. Not especially thrilled about that.

 

[taurusking]

Rated miles account for a fixed 280Wh/mile, so if you have 50 rated miles remaining, there are 14kWh of energy remaining. In order to go 75 miles on that, you'd need to maintain an efficiency of 187Wh/m which is not reasonable unless you are going down hill, have a tailwind or are going rather slow on a flat surface. 187 Wh/m equates to getting almost 400 miles from a full charge, which while doable is extraordinarily rare.

Thanks Bighorn..You nailed it...

Have you got over 300 miles of range from a full charge?

 

[islandbayy]

My current stats: S60, 22K miles, 100% charge give 193.7 rated / 220.8 ideal. Not especially thrilled about that.

Thats actually really bad. What version pack do you have?

 

[rlang59]

My current stats: S60, 22K miles, 100% charge give 193.7 rated / 220.8 ideal. Not especially thrilled about that.

What do you typically have the charge slider set to? If it is less than 90% then you should charge to 90% for a few weeks.

 

[Bighorn]

Thanks Bighorn..You nailed it...

Have you got over 300 miles of range from a full charge?

I have not

 

[tomas]

Rated miles account for a fixed 280Wh/mile, so if you have 50 rated miles remaining, there are 14kWh of energy remaining. In order to go 75 miles on that, you'd need to maintain an efficiency of 187Wh/m which is not reasonable unless you are going down hill, have a tailwind or are going rather slow on a flat surface. 187 Wh/m equates to getting almost 400 miles from a full charge, which while doable is extraordinarily rare.

Although my experience is rated miles are worth a bit more than 280Wh/mile, I generally agree with @Bighorn's logic, which is why I'm not a big fan of using projected range unless you are extremely confident of all of the variables for your past and remaining journey: speed, wind, slope, temperature. Slope being the easiest IMHO to get wrong. Unless I have driven a route a lot, it is sometimes hard to tell if the overall route is uphill or downhill... which can make a huge difference.

Taurusking - was not my intent to be insulting regarding reading the manual... it seemed from your intro that you purchased a pre-owned car, not sure what level of orientation you got. Though the manual is not super complete, I view it (and Tesla's website) as authoritative, and this forum as supplementary.

 

[Bighorn]

Although my experience is rated miles are worth a bit more than 280Wh/mile, I generally agree with @Bighorn's logic, which is why I'm not a big fan of using projected range unless you are extremely confident of all of the variables for your past and remaining journey: speed, wind, slope, temperature. Slope being the easiest IMHO to get wrong. Unless I have driven a route a lot, it is sometimes hard to tell if the overall route is uphill or downhill... which can make a huge difference.

Next time you take a reasonably long drive, starting from a charge, note the rated miles on the speedo. At the conclusion of your drive, note the Total Energy Since Last Charge, which you can monitor on your dash and the remaining rated miles. Divide the kWh used by the number of rated miles consumed. I'm fairly certain you'll be 280 +/- 3 Wh/rated mile based on extensive observation. Using projected miles to calculate your actual Wh/m does not work.

 

[Whom]

Thats actually really bad. What version pack do you have?

B-pack.

- - - Updated - - -

What do you typically have the charge slider set to? If it is less than 90% then you should charge to 90% for a few weeks.

I do typically set it less than 90%, so I will try that. But I thought that only affected the Rated range, not the Ideal range (which is supposed to be unaffected by the algorithms).

 

[rlang59]

B-pack.

- - - Updated - - -



I do typically set it less than 90%, so I will try that. But I thought that only affected the Rated range, not the Ideal range (which is supposed to be unaffected by the algorithms).

It seems to change them both. Also setting Range mode (for the climate control) adds another ~3-4 miles.

 

[Bardlebee]

!ATTENTION!:

I really like the discussion in here. But I want to point your attentions to this thread I've created to help track our range, our variables, and hopefully a join consensus that there is utter chaos or nothing to worry about. Can everyone reading this post submit the info we need to get a good working tacker for rated range?

Recording Rated Range and Fluctuations (Submit Your Range)

If you have any questions/comments let me know in that thread. Of course as well please let me know if my gauge for mileage is too broad/small or if there are additional data points I am missing.

Please proceed to your conversations.

 

[tomas]

Next time you take a reasonably long drive, starting from a charge, note the rated miles on the speedo. At the conclusion of your drive, note the Total Energy Since Last Charge, which you can monitor on your dash and the remaining rated miles. Divide the kWh used by the number of rated miles consumed. I'm fairly certain you'll be 280 +/- 3 Wh/rated mile based on extensive observation. Using projected miles to calculate your actual Wh/m does not work.

Thx, there's interesting discussion of this here. If EPA calculation of 265 for 85kWh MS was "run til dry", then "Par" is not 280, but 305. If EPA calculation excludes "below zero" reserve, then "par" is 287. By my various calculations (including using your approach today), I'm always around 295. I don't think the math adds up for 280, which is why I'm suggesting it's a little low. Not worth quibbling about, but 280 would suggest that the total usable battery capacity is 74.2 kWh, which I also believe is a bit low.

- - - Updated - - -

!ATTENTION!:

I really like the discussion in here. But I want to point your attentions to this thread I've created to help track our range, our variables, and hopefully a join consensus that there is utter chaos or nothing to worry about. Can everyone reading this post submit the info we need to get a good working tacker for rated range?

Recording Rated Range and Fluctuations (Submit Your Range)

If you have any questions/comments let me know in that thread. Of course as well please let me know if my gauge for mileage is too broad/small or if there are additional data points I am missing.

Please proceed to your conversations.

What fun is that when we can opine to our heart's content here with no fear of real data proving us wrong? Yes, I plan to fill out your form, good luck.

 

[Bighorn]

Thx, there's interesting discussion of this here. If EPA calculation of 265 for 85kWh MS was "run til dry", then "Par" is not 280, but 305. If EPA calculation excludes "below zero" reserve, then "par" is 287. By my various calculations (including using your approach today), I'm always around 295. I don't think the math adds up for 280, which is why I'm suggesting it's a little low. Not worth quibbling about, but 280 would suggest that the total usable battery capacity is 74.2 kWh, which I also believe is a bit low.

I've got 36K miles on my P85+. On trip where I've fully cycled the battery (265 miles to 0), I ended up using 74kWh from 100 to 0 SOC. This past weekend, I predicted that my capacity was 72.8kWh based on 260 rated miles times 280Wh/rated mile. After driving from 100 to 50% SOC, I had used 36.2 kWh or 72.4kWh for the full charge by extrapolation. If anything, the newer firmware may have lowered the rated mile constant to 278Wh/m.

I think Tesla been adjusting the required efficiency for a rated mile and that is why some older batteries appear to not have lost much range. JBowers recently noted that his full (rated mile)battery capacity has dropped about 11kWh and he still sees 245 rated miles on a range charge.

 

[taurusking]

Taurusking - was not my intent to be insulting regarding reading the manual... it seemed from your intro that you purchased a pre-owned car, not sure what level of orientation you got. Though the manual is not super complete, I view it (and Tesla's website) as authoritative, and this forum as supplementary.

It is o.k ... I did not perceive it that way...Actually I purchased an inventory car from TM

DS went over everything but did not talk about decreasing rated range.. you are right manual does not talk about everything... I wish it was...

 

[gregincal]

So, just another data point. I'd been charging at 70% for about a year, and over the summer I got a full range charge of 251 miles (S85 B-pack). Due to this thread I went back to charging to 90% for the last month and a half. My 90% went from 222 to 230 and I range charged this morning at 260 rated miles. Pretty happy for 15K miles and 20 months of ownership.