-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Delay in model X launch?
- Thread starter Eds
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Model X model x launch
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
From what he said himself, he was not 'temporarily banned', but rather put on moderation. A temp ban would have meant 1) his status would show up as 'Banned' under his username for a specific period of time (never happened), and 2) he would have been unable to post during that time frame (also untrue). Being put on moderation means that before his posts were public, a moderator would review first. (Note that posts critical of TMC and/or Tesla would be and have historically been approved.)
Though he seemed to like to refer to it as having been banned, by his own description (and by what was obvious in terms of visibility), he was in moderation. That usually happens when the site administration feels there is valid reason for a person's posts to be reviewed by a moderator prior to public posting. I can't speak to the reason he would have been put under moderation (I had quit moderating at that point), but reasons for others have included things like deliberately trolling, ignoring requests from mods to stop taking potshots at other members, including advertising in posts, or other TOS violations that administrators don't feel rise to the level of an actual ban from the site. In reality, moderation is commonly used as a last warning to a member before bans happen - and moderation is usually lifted after a period of time if moderators feel the person *gets it*.
Anyway, he was under moderation with his post requiring review, never was banned.
Anyways, looks like Eds knew of the hydraulic FWD problem (I think he specifically mentioned it in one of his posts), and that would have been reason enough to predict few Model X being made in 2015.
Anyone else surprised that Tesla outsourced the FWD opening mechanism? I thought they would have learned by now that if you are doing something for the first time, you do it in house (eg. Roadster transmission, roadster motor, etc.)
Anyone else surprised that Tesla outsourced the FWD opening mechanism? I thought they would have learned by now that if you are doing something for the first time, you do it in house (eg. Roadster transmission, roadster motor, etc.)
Last edited:
I think Tesla is resource constrained, so they don't have the luxury of designing and building everything in house. I think it's smart, more efficient and more timely to outsource to the experts whenever possible. Tesla has shown that when those "experts" fail to deliver, they'll go to the (time-consuming) trouble to do it themselves.
pvogel
Member
In this case, given the speed with which they made the adjustment, I would venture to guess they had a small "tiger team" working on a backup in case the supplier was unable to meet their commitments. This happens all the time -- you think a partner will significantly help with something, but you recognize that what you are doing is inherently risky (or the partner fails an early commitment) and you put together a "plan B" team -- which may be an alternate supplier or may be an in-house design.
Quite honestly, I don't see how you could get to the level of precise articulation the Falcon doors are capable of in various obstruction scenarios with hydraulics. That was evident even in the video of the mule for brake testing with the hydraulic doors, if you stood in front of the door it just decided not to open vs. what happens today where it lifts the shoulder first, then the elbow in that scenario. I also don't see how you could get to the electronic actuators + precision articulation that you have in the vehicles today in a 4 month effort (May 2015 to September 2015) so that plan B team was working for a while. They just made the final "go with plan B" decision when Eds posted.
Peter+
Not in the slightest, where does it end...
Will they in house the trunk lifts?
Will they in house the tires ?
Realistically no matter how good Elon is at raising money there is a finite amount that can be raised in a desire to have an end to end product.
No doubt there are two sides to the story, we have no idea how scope and requirement has changed over the course of the contract. This going legal will no doubt uncover a fair chunk of discovery documentation, some I suspect Tesla will wish wasn't necessarily public.
disclaimer: I have no TSLA position. I just feel frustrated by the whole door fiasco. Not in implementation or concept particularly, but it is clear it has caused obvious drag to be placed on Tesla in hitting other more important goals. A scaled up Model S, with regular doors, higher driving position, folding seats, and adult usable 3rd row, would have sold just as many units. Yet here we are behind schedule and now with a big distraction for the management team dealing with legal action, and an airing of dirty laundry in public.
Falking wing doors
You will find no greater sympathizer on this topic than me. My only hope is that we are dead wrong, the falcon wing doors really do make everyone want one, and they aid in drawing attention to the brand leading up to the release of the Model 3. In other words, looking at the long game, I hope they turn out to be the right choice.
larmor
Active Member
On a daily basis with kiddos getting into and out of the car, in supermarket parking lots, among other places, motorized sliding doors as on a minivan are crucial. I think FWD would be a great alternative, and hope TM keeps up innovating the automobile...
Krugerrand
Meow
Thanks for the correction. It was I that was in temporary ban mode (and a couple others), but AR was in moderation mode.
I agree to a point. But It's not like Tesla is not a well known brand already, and I have no doubt the 3 will generate all the column inches anyone could wish for
I worry as a focal platform the X is the right tool however for a 3 launch. Certainly among the detractors the brand has an air of "rich man's toy" (trying to be brutally objective), that if they want to shake as they move out of niche into mass market the X may be counter productive. It is after all even more expensive, and the doors even more of an obvious demonstration of wealth. (Not that I have a problem with that, just trying to look through the eyes of a regular car buyer, who will now associate Tesla with ridiculous 0-60 times and funky doors... neither of which are likely in the 3)
I find it interesting that most of the mainstream press (many rehashes of obvious press release sourced content), and recent interviews with Elon , the messaging has been remarkably quiet on the X compared to the far greater focus going into autonomous driving and how it will benefit the masses.
So do I.
(My comments on this matter are really to serve as devil's advocate in some ways)
I agree to a point. But It's not like Tesla is not a well known brand already, and I have no doubt the 3 will generate all the column inches anyone could wish for
I worry as a focal platform the X is the right tool however for a 3 launch. Certainly among the detractors the brand has an air of "rich man's toy" (trying to be brutally objective), that if they want to shake as they move out of niche into mass market the X may be counter productive. It is after all even more expensive, and the doors even more of an obvious demonstration of wealth. (Not that I have a problem with that, just trying to look through the eyes of a regular car buyer, who will now associate Tesla with ridiculous 0-60 times and funky doors... neither of which are likely in the 3)
I find it interesting that most of the mainstream press (many rehashes of obvious press release sourced content), and recent interviews with Elon , the messaging has been remarkably quiet on the X compared to the far greater focus going into autonomous driving and how it will benefit the masses.
So do I.
(My comments on this matter are really to serve as devil's advocate in some ways)
This could work in the opposite way.
Because of the things you said, people will associate Tesla as a premium brand. And when Model 3 comes out, if its at a price point that more can afford , may actually drive sales higher as people can now attain that premium brand.
Similar to how exclusive fashion designers (e.g. vera wang) start exclusively for the uber rich, then release a Macy's line for the masses. Because of their brand at the top end of the market they drive volume at the lower end for those who want to be associated
Do remember, smac, that the Model X and the Falcon Wing Doors were designed and revealed before the first Model S was delivered. Back then, Tesla did not have a well known brand, and it had to fight tooth and claw for every free column inch it could get. Is it the perfect car to be introducing now? No, but I would wager that it was the correct decision four years ago.
@highedu I agree, but then the temptation will be to inflate the Model 3 price. It's great in one way as "strong brands" often comes with strong margins, however if the goal is to produce an affordable mass market car, then there is conflict.
Personally I think in the short term, this is one area the 3 will miss design brief, and creep up in price. I have no issue with this, it is fine companies must adapt, and is a sign of strong management.
@cosmacelf For sure. Effectively I felt they were promising right at the edge of achievability.
It's great to have ambitious goals, and it certainly gained a lot of press. Delivering on this that is the hard part, with functionality and/or time scales slipping for final product. It's just a fact of life
For that reason I am encouraged the Model 3 specs and details are far more under the radar. Makes expectation management far easier
This isn't a Tesla bashing btw, it's just my view of one of the things I'd like to seem them address in order to make them a stronger company in the long term!
Personally I think in the short term, this is one area the 3 will miss design brief, and creep up in price. I have no issue with this, it is fine companies must adapt, and is a sign of strong management.
@cosmacelf For sure. Effectively I felt they were promising right at the edge of achievability.
It's great to have ambitious goals, and it certainly gained a lot of press. Delivering on this that is the hard part, with functionality and/or time scales slipping for final product. It's just a fact of life
For that reason I am encouraged the Model 3 specs and details are far more under the radar. Makes expectation management far easier
This isn't a Tesla bashing btw, it's just my view of one of the things I'd like to seem them address in order to make them a stronger company in the long term!
I reserved an X because I've been driving a Honda CR-V for the last 19 years and appreciate the higher driving position. While I am now able to configure my X, I'm still holding out until I can see one in person and decide if the non-folding 2nd row seats will accommodate my cargo needs. If there was a scaled up Model S (perhaps something similar to what Subaru has done with the Impreza, jacking it up to create the CrossTrek), then my mind would be made up instantly. It would have nearly all of the benefits of the S and some of the benefits of the X as well.
Krugerrand
Meow
The truth is not everyone thinks like 'us'. We tend to surround ourselves with people who do, so we sometimes get a skewed version of how certain things are viewed/perceived/thought about in the bigger world. Objectively there are just as many people who love the doors as don't love the doors. There are just as many people who are under the impression Tesla is just for the rich, as there are people who are waiting for the 3 they can afford.
They built the X, it has the doors, let's move on. Moving on...suggestions by Elon Musk are that the Model Y will also have the doors. That may change, but for now the doors are here to stay and one of many Tesla 'trademarks'.
They built the X, it has the doors, let's move on. Moving on...suggestions by Elon Musk are that the Model Y will also have the doors. That may change, but for now the doors are here to stay and one of many Tesla 'trademarks'.
And that would be the X. There have been multiple posts on TMC by new X owners saying that they are impressed with how stable and nimble the X handling feels, and some have said it handles better than their S.
Remember, the X is only about a foot taller than the S. It's not a huge SUV, it's actually quite sleek.
@Kruggerand: it seems possible to me that the CUV version of the Model 3 (I'm not convinced it will be called the "Model Y", but we shall see) may have Falcon Wings. Yes they will add cost, but now that Tesla has figured out how to build that kind of door and make it work reliably perhaps higher volume production will drive the cost down. Because the "3 CUV" will be a much smaller car than the X and won't have a third row, I can even imagine one Falcon Wing door providing access to the first and second row simultaneously, something that has been posted about last year on TMC.
I am not yet convinced that in March (or whenever) that Tesla will show both the sedan and the CUV versions of the Model 3. I think only the sedan will be shown.
Last edited:
The X also comes with falcon wing doors, panoramic windshield, etc. and took years to develop. If they would've just jacked up the S and kept the doors and windshield the same, they could've offered such a model years ago.
I know this is not what you're saying, but the pedant in me just needs to get it out - there aren't just as many people that love and don't love the doors. That's an even 50% split. And the other comparison is two separate groups. But I definitely agree with the point. It's a type of confirmation bias.
On the other point, I think you're right that wishing the MX didn't have the doors (as I admittedly do) is a waste of personal energy. I often remind my family of this exact thing - wishing doesn't change anything, action does. To that end, discussion about the potential cons of falcon wings is a type of action. It's collecting some information to make decisions. And, eventually, to provide feedback to Tesla so that they can feel good about putting them on the Model Y or they can change the game plan.
Merrill
Merrill
For me I really want Tesla to be able to make an affordable nice looking all electric car that everyone will want. As has been said many times all we hear now about Tesla is "it is a car for the wealthy". Most people would never spend $100k on a car and I totally understand that, but looking at the future if we want more sustainable transportation we need the Model 3.
