Disappointing Range in P3D. Is this normal?

[AtlasReardan]

Regarding all the advice about not running the heater, what do most people do? I've just been turning the temperature down to where it's not much higher than the outside ambient temperature reading. I don't like turning it off completely, since I lose ventilation. But I actually prefer a lower ambient cabin temperature combined with seat heaters versus more hot air blowing, so that's not a big compromise for some extra range.

I got a digital tire gauge and dialed in the tire pressure to 42 psi cold all around. The ride seems fine at this level of pressure.

I don't think it's fair to compare Tesla's stated range to EPA mileage estimates on gas cars. People pay mild attention to EPA fuel mileage estimates. It really doesn't affect people too much if it's a little off or fluctuates a bit. But the range on an electric car is much more important. And for those that aren't EV enthusiasts, when they hear Teslas talked about in public discourse, my impression is that there is not a lot of distinguishing going on between EPA range and real world range. So when one finds out it's actually VASTLY different, it can be a bit of a shock.

I ended up taking a 280-290 mile road trip. There was a supercharger just about smack in the middle of the route, so it worked out pretty well. But the battery was getting down close to 10% by the time I needed to supercharge both time (going to and the round trip back). This is where the range thing becomes an issue. I would be really nervous if I had a 200 mile leg between superchargers. This is obviously a non-issue in a gasoline car regardless of EPA accuracy. I realize this is old news to the EV veterans, but it takes some getting used to for those new to this. But for daily driving needs, the P3D+ is perfectly fine (in fact, much more convenient than gas, since you start each day with a "full tank").

 

[AtlasReardan]

Here's where I'm at now. 338 Wh/mi after 3,711 miles.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Here's where I'm at now. 338 Wh/mi after 3,711 miles.
View attachment 373212

Seems fine. I just turn off the HVAC here in San Diego. I think turning it down to around or below ambient is probably a good option but since Tesla does not provide a readout, it is hard to say - it will definitely save energy though. You can manually turn off A/C and turn on fresh air too.

Since you've had the car for 4 months, 120 days, you have about 90kWh of vampire drain to add. Plus potentially more not counted by that in-car meter (for preheat or sitting around heating your car while in park) - that meter doesn't show any energy you use while in Park.

Charger efficiency (energy added to battery / energy from wall) is about 86% as far as I can tell. (Might not be quite right, need data.)

So your true Wh/mi (in the EPA context) is likely about:

((1256kWh+90kWh (vampire))/3711mi) / 0.86 = 422Wh/mi

Compare to the EPA LR AWD number of 290Wh/mi (29kWh/100mi). Since you have the sticky tires I would expect to do worse than that number by about 50Wh/mi, so best case the P3D+ would be at 34kWh/100mi, if the EPA rated it (it does not). You're doing 42kWh/100mi due to vampire (30Wh/mi (3kWh/100mi) adder (for you - depends on miles driven/yr) not accounted for in the EPA testing) & the fact that it is winter and you have those losses to deal with.

As I said, your actual usage may be worse that that if you use the car as a place to stay warm. Your numbers aren't that different than mine; I have ~300Wh/mi efficiency (as displayed in car) over 2500mi, but I am careful to just turn off HVAC, and I don't do a lot of high speed freeway driving.

 

[mswlogo]

Regarding all the advice about not running the heater, what do most people do? I've just been turning the temperature down to where it's not much higher than the outside ambient temperature reading. I don't like turning it off completely, since I lose ventilation. But I actually prefer a lower ambient cabin temperature combined with seat heaters versus more hot air blowing, so that's not a big compromise for some extra range.

I got a digital tire gauge and dialed in the tire pressure to 42 psi cold all around. The ride seems fine at this level of pressure.

I don't think it's fair to compare Tesla's stated range to EPA mileage estimates on gas cars. People pay mild attention to EPA fuel mileage estimates. It really doesn't affect people too much if it's a little off or fluctuates a bit. But the range on an electric car is much more important. And for those that aren't EV enthusiasts, when they hear Teslas talked about in public discourse, my impression is that there is not a lot of distinguishing going on between EPA range and real world range. So when one finds out it's actually VASTLY different, it can be a bit of a shock.

I ended up taking a 280-290 mile road trip. There was a supercharger just about smack in the middle of the route, so it worked out pretty well. But the battery was getting down close to 10% by the time I needed to supercharge both time (going to and the round trip back). This is where the range thing becomes an issue. I would be really nervous if I had a 200 mile leg between superchargers. This is obviously a non-issue in a gasoline car regardless of EPA accuracy. I realize this is old news to the EV veterans, but it takes some getting used to for those new to this. But for daily driving needs, the P3D+ is perfectly fine (in fact, much more convenient than gas, since you start each day with a "full tank").

So your saying ignore EPA mileage ratings then complain anout the range ratings. They are all the same thing just stated differently. MPGe, Range, wh/mi etc.

AWD (on Aero’s) is 295 miles.

Running battery 90% to 10% SOC is 80% of capacity. So now you’re down to 236 miles range.

Now if you want to drive in fairly cold temps knock another 20% off. 20% should be manageable most of the time. But if you have several passengers in cold weather it might need to run HVAC harder. Now your down to 189 miles range.

Now you said P3D+ (assuming 20” OEM wheels mounted) that’s at least another 10% penalty.

Now you’re down to 169 miles range.

But you should not be running those 20” wheels in cold weather. Let’s back up.

So P3D+ in optimal weather should be around 212 miles range (20% battery, 10% for wheels). Some might say 15% penalty for those wheels which is 200 miles range.

Give or take

Other penalties may apply. Driving over 70 mph. etc.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

Generally I have had no problem in "good weather" with little or no climate control averaging 275 Wh/mi (even with some intervals of spirited driving) on my P3D+ with 20" wheels. If I am mellow in my driving in the same weather I can get that number down to 245Wh/mi. If I beat on it, use the heat in really cold weather, sit in traffic with really cold weather (like the zero degree commute I did today), it can get as high as 400 Wh/mi. BTW, right now I am running the Michelin AS/3+ tires on 20" stock sport / performance wheels. When warmer, I use the stock Pilot 4S tires...

 

[AtlasReardan]

So your saying ignore EPA mileage ratings then complain anout the range ratings.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it is presented more as a real world range, and it's hard to compare to EPA gas mileage estimates because EV Range is infinitely more important in a practical sense versus MPG in a gas car.

This is from Tesla's Model 3 homepage:

I don't think it's crazy to assume the average person looks at that and assumes the car can travel 310 miles.

AWD (on Aero’s) is 295 miles.

Tesla never said that is the case. See the pic above.

Now you said P3D+ (assuming 20” OEM wheels mounted) that’s at least another 10% penalty.

Tesla never said this either. They said my P3D+ was rated for 310 miles.

Having said that, it's common sense that real world conditions will vary and thus so will range. I just wasn't prepared for how extreme the difference would be.

 

[AtlasReardan]

Generally I have had no problem in "good weather" with little or no climate control averaging 275 Wh/mi (even with some intervals of spirited driving) on my P3D+ with 20" wheels. If I am mellow in my driving in the same weather I can get that number down to 245Wh/mi. If I beat on it, use the heat in really cold weather, sit in traffic with really cold weather (like the zero degree commute I did today), it can get as high as 400 Wh/mi. BTW, right now I am running the Michelin AS/3+ tires on 20" stock sport / performance wheels. When warmer, I use the stock Pilot 4S tires...

Those seem like pretty good numbers. I'm in Southern California, so my definition of "cold weather" is high 50's to low 60's! I haven't really paid attention closely to the Wh/mi on individual trips, but when I have, I've never seen anything close to 245.

 

[AtlasReardan]

Generally I have had no problem in "good weather" with little or no climate control averaging 275 Wh/mi (even with some intervals of spirited driving) on my P3D+ with 20" wheels. If I am mellow in my driving in the same weather I can get that number down to 245Wh/mi. If I beat on it, use the heat in really cold weather, sit in traffic with really cold weather (like the zero degree commute I did today), it can get as high as 400 Wh/mi. BTW, right now I am running the Michelin AS/3+ tires on 20" stock sport / performance wheels. When warmer, I use the stock Pilot 4S tires...

Those seem like pretty good numbers. I'm in Southern California, so my definition of "cold weather" is high 50's to low 60's! I haven't really paid attention closely to the Wh/mi on individual trips, but when I have, I've never seen anything close to 245.

 

[mswlogo]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it is presented more as a real world range, and it's hard to compare to EPA gas mileage estimates because EV Range is infinitely more important in a practical sense versus MPG in a gas car.

This is from Tesla's Model 3 homepage:
View attachment 373417

I don't think it's crazy to assume the average person looks at that and assumes the car can travel 310 miles.

Tesla never said that is the case. See the pic above.

Tesla never said this either. They said my P3D+ was rated for 310 miles.

Having said that, it's common sense that real world conditions will vary and thus so will range. I just wasn't prepared for how extreme the difference would be.

Fair enough on your points. But keep in mind you have to do around 240 wh/mi to get to 310 miles range.

BTW, I assume you know, that there is a "Reference" line in Car's Energy App that is DIFFERENT between AWD cars and RWD cars.

That Reference line is drawn at approx. 241 wh/mi on a RWD which works out to 310 miles range on a 75kwh LR battery.
That Reference line is drawn at approx. 251 wh/mi on a AWD which works out to 295 miles range on a 75kwh LR battery.

So Tesla acknowledges there is a difference. Note that they never label that Reference Line with a Value.

There is no reference line for 20" Wheels on an AWD (Performance). And we know that's a significant hit.

I think they certainly stretched things a bit between AWD and RWD.
And when these numbers were done between Tesla and EPA the 20" Wheels were an OPTION.
Now the Performance must included them and eventually will get retested with the 20" wheels.

I think the $hit will hit the fan when that happens and they probably should have kept the 20" Wheels as an Option.

I think come warm weather AWD and RWD with Aero's will both easily meet the 310 range. If driven "reasonably".
But it will be difficult for the 20" Wheels to ever reach that.

I don't think to many P3D+ owners are that upset and most knew it would cost something (optional or not).
And 20" tires really shouldn't be used in cold weather. And that is clearly stated by Tesla.

 

[mswlogo]

Generally I have had no problem in "good weather" with little or no climate control averaging 275 Wh/mi (even with some intervals of spirited driving) on my P3D+ with 20" wheels. If I am mellow in my driving in the same weather I can get that number down to 245Wh/mi. If I beat on it, use the heat in really cold weather, sit in traffic with really cold weather (like the zero degree commute I did today), it can get as high as 400 Wh/mi. BTW, right now I am running the Michelin AS/3+ tires on 20" stock sport / performance wheels. When warmer, I use the stock Pilot 4S tires...

I think those numbers sound realistic. On my P3D- the first month (1000 miles) when temps were 50-70F I had lifetime of 230 wh/mi
And that was 95% Chill Mode Mellow driving. If it was all Chill and Mellow I think I could get down to 220 wh/mi on a daily basis when it warms up.

If we add 10% for 20" wheels to my 230 wh/mi it comes out to 247 wh/mi.

I don't know what AC will cost in the hot humid weather comes though.

BTW my "mellow" usually doesn't go over 65 mph. Subtract 5% wh/mi for every 5 mph over that.

 

[TANGO SUKKA]

Check out my wh/mi from my morning commute today.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Check out my wh/mi from my morning commute today.

Slow, drafting, and possibly slightly downhill. I get under 200Wh/mi on my morning commute every time. 500 feet over 10 miles gives me a nice 80Wh/mi deduction. Sadly the return is not so good.


I had the benefit of knowing how these things work, before I bought the vehicle (I have two Spark EVs, and was able to carefully compare the efficiency of one with racing tires (for autocross) and one with Ecopias - so I knew the impact of sticky tires), so I feel for those who didn't know every last little thing about how efficiency works. People try to make the argument that people should know because ICE vehicles have the same issues, but that's not true at all; it's a totally different order of magnitude when you look at % of range loss with various impairments (specifically tire choice in this case) - because that's how math works. There's a reason ICE vehicles typically don't have aero covers - would help a Prius though!

And the image from Tesla's website above, is definitely misleading. I don't think Tesla is helping the situation. I think they should educate buyers about what to expect... But, it's always buyer beware in this world...

I also think Tesla should have provided an official range number, and also provided 18" wheels with aeros that actually fit the Performance model. They could have done this and offered the package (as an adder) at a discount (or not) to Performance buyers. For full disclosure, they could have also indicated that swapping in the range wheels would compromise handling and stopping distance (it's about 105' PS4S vs. 125' MXM4). Let the market decide! There is no reason to fudge things. I'm sure the sales guys would not agree with me, but I doubt it would impact their sales much - I think that many Performance buyers already know they're not going to get the advertised range due to the tires, or they don't care.

I want those 18" aero covers!

 

[Nocturnal]

If I drive like a grandma in my P3D+ I can hit the rated range in temperate weather. I think people worry about this way too much. Let's say your range is 50 miles less than expected, that only comes into play twice a year when you make long trips right? There are always tradeoffs.

I want those 18" aero covers!

What do you mean? I thought the 18 aeros were an option when ordering? Or at least they were when I bought mine.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If I drive like a grandma in my P3D+ I can hit the rated range in temperate weather. I think people worry about this way too much.

Try a drive matching the EPA highway cycle and see if you can hit the 296-mile (I think that's the number for EPA highway) EPA predicted range. The PS4S will make it impossible. (It may be possible if you make an effort to draft off of everyone - but that is not the EPA cycle.)

Of course there are tradeoffs, as you say. I'm fine with it. I knew what I was getting. I'm eventually going to get at least two extra sets of wheels. Maybe three. Just waiting for 18" aeros.

What do you mean? I thought the 18 aeros were an option when ordering? Or at least they were when I bought mine.

Nope. 18" wheels do not fit the PUO brake package. Also the offset is wrong, so you'd need spacers, which I wouldn't want to do (I think - I haven't done detailed looking at fitting wheels so I'm not as sure about that - but the two-piece rotors are a few mm thinner).

EDIT: Yes, to clarify, I was talking about with the PUO brake package in my prior post. I wanted Track Mode, so I had to get that package (at the time - and at the current time, too). 18" wheels are way better for most purposes (in my view) so I would have preferred those, but no such luck. Obviously aftermarket is fine. But aeros...problematic. Surprisingly little demand for aero covers with aftermarket wheels.

 

[Nocturnal]

I want those 18" aero covers!

Try a drive matching the EPA highway cycle and see if you can hit the 296-mile (I think that's the number for EPA highway) EPA predicted range. The PS4S will make it impossible. (It may be possible if you make an effort to draft off of everyone - but that is not the EPA cycle.)



Nope. 18" wheels do not fit the PUO brake package. Also the offset is wrong (I think - I haven't done detailed looking at fitting wheels so I'm not as sure about that - but the two-piece rotors are a few mm thinner).

Right. I could have forgone the package altogether but since I have the bigger breaks I can't easily downgrade. True true. They should offer a factory option for sure, though there are aftermarket options.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

Those seem like pretty good numbers. I'm in Southern California, so my definition of "cold weather" is high 50's to low 60's! I haven't really paid attention closely to the Wh/mi on individual trips, but when I have, I've never seen anything close to 245.

Have you driven an EV before your Model 3? I have been driving an EV for 7 years and there is definitely a way to "drive for range."

 

[FranceUSA]

It is interesting to see all the California owners debate efficiency and kWh per mile to figure out if they get 310 miles or 290 or 285 miles.

I am in Minneapolis and my range this week is 120 miles at 90% charging with the car in a heated garage. It was -20F. So 80 degrees lower than most owners. I have the “Stat” app and it shows o am in the bottom 2% of efficiency for model 3 owners at about 50%.

I do have the performance with PUP and switched for the winter the rims and tires to 19,inch sottozero from T sportline.

Even in September with the 20’s I was getting 250 miles of range on highway driving long distance on empty highways to North Dakota at 75 miles per hour.

 

[FranceUSA]

So in CA you have range of 300 and super changers but you have to wait to charge since they are busy. Here I have to rely on level 2 chargers once I arrive in NOrth Dakota because there is only a super charger 180 miles from the ND border.
I’m orher words that would be ok in the summer but the range of the tesla 3 in the winter makes traveling between MN and ND almost impossible because Tesla caters to the population centers as opposed to providing real solutions for cross country driving across all 50 states.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

I have used my M3P as my daily driver since I got it on 12/28/18. I plug it in to my (rather slow) 30-amp circuit at night using the supplied mobile charger and it charges at roughly 22 miles of charge per hour. I have never needed to SuperCharge and the most I ran the battery down to was to "80 miles" remaining -- and that was after an overnight trip with no charger. Bottom line? Unless you are road tripping a LOT, have a really long commute and/or do not have access to even decent overnight charging, you never need to worry about range.

Of course if you do road trip a lot, have a really long commute and/or do NOT have access to decent overnight charging and still bought a Model 3, that may have been a mistake. EV's are different than ICE-based vehicles and those differences need to be taken into account when making a purchase decision. For 95% of us with "average" daily driving needs and a place to charge at home overnight, the Model 3 even with the MR battery pack has more than enough range to literally never worry about it.

And one final point because so many EV-haters complain about the time they take to charge...over the past month of driving I have put 1,000 miles on my M3P. Total time spent related to "filling her up?" PERHAPS 5 minutes (plugging and unplugging the car each day). If I had an ICE-based car I would have had to stop at a gas station at least three times to fill a tank over 1,000 miles at 10 minutes per stop. That is 25 minutes that I SAVED on "filling up" by driving an EV...

 

[DR61]

So in CA you have range of 300 and super changers but you have to wait to charge since they are busy.

California is huge compared to Minnesota; no you don't have to wait in many areas. I have supercharged 15 times in 5 months and never waited for a charging spot in the east SF bay area, Vacaville, Sacramento, Truckee, and Corning.

Our AWD+Aeros has averaged 239 Wh/mi over 4100 miles. I usually use manual climate at 65F in our cooler weather (35-50F) and don't usually exceed posted limits on the highway.