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Do you plan to pay for your TM3 with Bitcoins?

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Celsius works exactly the same way as banks - they lend the coins out, take interest and pay it out to depositors. They lend a lower proportion of it than banks do typically (ie the ratio is safer) and they pay out more of it in interest. They're less profitable than banks, proportionally, but their depositors get a better rate. One neat wrinkle is that if you take your interest in CEL (and that's where the highest rates are, like the BTC one you quote), then the company has to buy that interest off the market each week, which obviously has a beneficial effect on the CEL price over time (given a fixed total supply).

I know that's the claim, but I don't see it happening. Who's borrowing crypto, and what are they doing with it? The only things you can do with crypto today are speculate or spend it on the dark web. Lending to speculators is a recipe for disaster, because when the speculations fail they cannot pay back the loans. And lending for purchases on the dark web is dodgy at best.

The vast majority of crypto transactions are speculation, because there just aren't that many places to actually use it, even including the black market. When it rises, all schemes are profitable. When it falls, everybody gets wiped out.

Note that legitimate businesses that accept crypto convert it to fiat the instant they receive it, because the volatility of crypto makes it useless as an actual medium of exchange. This fact also renders it questionable that anybody would be borrowing crypto for anything but speculation. Again, a very risky business model. Deposits in bank accounts are insured by the FDIC (in the U.S., and by similar institutions in other countries). Deposits in Celsius are effectively unsecured junk bonds in a company whose revenue source is questionable.

The next tine there's a precipitous drop in the value of BTC, there will be a run on Celsius by depositors wanting to liquidate. Will Celsius have enough liquidity, or will they go bankrupt and take depositors' coins with them? If they're not insured it means that the people whose expertise is risk assessment have calculated that the risk is too high.
 
(moderator note: This post is now about the economics of virtual currencies like bitcoin and others and not about model 3s other than people want to use them to buy model 3s. Locking this thread. Please discuss bitcoin or virtual currency in the investor sections, or off topic sections).

EDIT: Per request from active posters in the thread, moved to off topic and unlocked.
 
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I know that's the claim, but I don't see it happening. Who's borrowing crypto, and what are they doing with it? The only things you can do with crypto today are speculate or spend it on the dark web. Lending to speculators is a recipe for disaster, because when the speculations fail they cannot pay back the loans. And lending for purchases on the dark web is dodgy at best.

Three-quarters of my (non-CEL) holdings are in easily-convertible coins like PAXG (1:1 gold) and stable coins (TUSD and TGBP). These attract high interest rates since people like to do things like buy cars with fiat currency - Celsius loan USD and stablecoins to private individuals. I get the benefit of hedging inflation with the gold, and having a useful amount of "total emergency near-cash", whilst also getting a sensible level of interest. I have removed and added funds without any problems. From talking with other Celsius customers I'm not alone in the spread of coins or the ease of accessing funds.

The rest is in BTC, and a couple of utility coins which, despite your analysis, do have some worth already and over time it's likely that that worth will increase. I know speculation seems to be anathema to you, but none of us has 20/20 foresight and we occasionally have to take a risk.

I originally just replied with "Bye" to your post, but I thought I'd better not be quite so rude. My original post was providing an option that might allow crypto users to buy a car without "consuming" their high-value coins. I pointed out that people should do their own research. Then you reply to me, effectively telling me that my financial choices are wrong, without knowing how I've spread my risks or the scale of my investments in both fiat and crypto. You seem to be opposed to the principle of crypto, which is entirely your right. I wish you well with your fiat savings and investments (possibly we share some investments). Celsius is so far across the spectrum from what it appears you're happy with, it would be madness for you to use it.

In short, I didn't come here for an argument, I came to offer an option. Life really is too short for these Biden/Trump, Brexit/Remain, Crypto/Fiat arguments so I'll go back to my original reply and say goodbye and best wishes.
 
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(moderator note: This post is now about the economics of virtual currencies like bitcoin and others and not about model 3s other than people want to use them to buy model 3s. Locking this thread. Please discuss bitcoin or virtual currency in the investor sections, or off topic sections).

EDIT: Per request from active posters in the thread, moved to off topic and unlocked.

If deleting my Celsius post gets this thread back to its original purpose and allows it to return to the Model 3 forum then that’s fine by me.
 
... Then you reply to me, effectively telling me that my financial choices are wrong...

Not at all. My purpose is to warn people about the very shaky legs that companies like Celsius are built upon, and the very real possibility that they are crooked.

You offered people an option. I offered a counter to that option. I intended no personal criticism.

I have no objection if the mods want to delete the entire Celsius digression from the thread.
 
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moved to off topic and unlocked.

I appreciate you moving it and unlocking it, totally agree we have digressed from talking about purchasing Tesla's with BTC (though i seriously wish this was possible) but it's nice to still have the conversation in a more appropriate place!

I think the Tesla crowd and cryptocurrency crowd definitely have some overlap due to our love of technology :)
 
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I appreciate you moving it and unlocking it, totally agree we have digressed from talking about purchasing Tesla's with BTC (though i seriously wish this was possible) but it's nice to still have the conversation in a more appropriate place!

I think the Tesla crowd and cryptocurrency crowd definitely have some overlap due to our love of technology :)

And it's a great idea to overlap them. I too wish BTC would go further in price to catch up with a TM3 and buy 1 from it.
 
I still haven't bought my Model 3 and I still have my BTC. It's up to $22,000 or so per BTC now so it isn't much more than 1 imaginary coin per SR+ and still under 2 coins for an AWD. If BTC goes high enough it could even pay for a AWD with FSD. I'd like that config but I've been hesitant to put cash into full self driving. If I can buy it with coins though I would be less hesitant.

Unlike 2017 I'll likely have to pay capital gains tax on turning BTC into USD in 2020 and 2021. Still even with long term capital gains taxes if BTC keeps moving higher I'll laugh while paying my taxes.
 
Still even with long term capital gains taxes if BTC keeps moving higher I'll laugh while paying my taxes.

You say that, but i cut the IRS a stupid big check in 2017 that was incredibly painful to write (though it was mostly short term gains for me then) even though i knew it was "free money" and i should still be happy with what i kept. I think our brains get fixated on the $ value we see in the portfolio and really think of it all as ours and forget to cut uncle sam a third of it ;)

Also Bitcoin is actually why i purchased my first Model 3 in December 2017. I originally was going to wait and then after getting stupid lucky i figured why not, get the car of my dreams!
 
"Still even with long term capital gains taxes if BTC keeps moving higher I'll laugh while paying my taxes."

You say that, but i cut the IRS a stupid big check in 2017 that was incredibly painful to write (though it was mostly short term gains for me then) even though i knew it was "free money" and i should still be happy with what i kept. I think our brains get fixated on the $ value we see in the portfolio and really think of it all as ours and forget to cut uncle sam a third of it ;)

Also Bitcoin is actually why i purchased my first Model 3 in December 2017. I originally was going to wait and then after getting stupid lucky i figured why not, get the car of my dreams!

I'm talking long term capital gains at 15% or I'd find it less funny.
 
If I knew in late 2008 what I know now about BTC...........

Well it didn't exist back then, so don't worry too much ;)

Still fairly early days if you compare Bitcoin's market cap to gold...

Fixes the issue I had with trying to move BTC into USD. My current bitpay card is limited to $10,000 a day in or out and $25,000 max on it.

Coinbase? You can withdraw like 50K per day i believe
 
... If I knew in late 2008 what I know now about BTC...........

If we knew five years ago what we know now we'd all be gazillionaires.

As they say, hindsight is 20-20.

BTW, I've read that a significant percentage of all bitcoin is lost forever on defunct hard drives. How would you feel if you'd bought a hundred bitcoin for 25¢ each and then junked the HD it was on? Or cashed out smiling at $1?

There's no point feeling bad for not seeing the future. I met a guy who declined an opportunity to buy into GoPro at its inception.
 
Are you aiming that at me? If so you must have missed the screenshot above in post #63.

edit: wow just looked at the single chart, yeah, I'd agree that someone in the 15% tax bracket filing single shouldn't be buying a new car of any kind. They should buy used.

View attachment 284609
View attachment 284610


So I'm doing my taxes again wondering if capital gains taxes will hit me for 2020 since they didn't for 2017. And the new tables are

1615773953668.png


and again it looks like my bitcoin sales snuck in under the $80,000 AGI bar (filing jointly) to give me 0% tax rate on my bitcoin.
 
This Bitcoin nonsense has turned me from being a vociferous Tesla supporter (Model S bought 9/2016) to a Tesla hater. I will now actively discourage people from thinking of buying worse than ICE Tesla cars. Musk is clearly not seeking to "transition the world to sustainable energy", he is looking to transition Elon Musk to be even more rich and powerful.
I have had my fill of kool-aid

Sad day. I love (loved) my Model S

Alternatives?
 
This Bitcoin nonsense has turned me from being a vociferous Tesla supporter (Model S bought 9/2016) to a Tesla hater. I will now actively discourage people from thinking of buying worse than ICE Tesla cars. Musk is clearly not seeking to "transition the world to sustainable energy", he is looking to transition Elon Musk to be even more rich and powerful.
I have had my fill of kool-aid

Sad day. I love (loved) my Model S

Alternatives?

Elon Musk's ill-advised adoption of and investment in bitcoin does not change the fact that a Tesla is the best car you can buy today. And Tesla is still one of only two companies in the world that is really serious about making electric cars in volume (the other being Nissan, which makes fine cars for a lower-end market).

I am very disappointed in Musk over this, but my Model 3 is the same car as it was before he decided to speculate in btc. And Tesla is still the leader in the transition to electric transportation and a significant player (if not the leader?) in battery production for storing sustainably-produced electricity. (My Powerwalls still run my house all night while my solar panels are inactive.)

As for Musk making himself rich, every CEO and every wealthy businessperson is motivated by a desire for more money. Most of them pollute the world while doing it or skim profit off the stock market without producing anything. Musk has done a lot of stupid things. But he's also the person most responsible for the fact that electric cars today are way more than golf carts.
 
Elon Musk's ill-advised adoption of and investment in bitcoin does not change the fact that a Tesla is the best car you can buy today. And Tesla is still one of only two companies in the world that is really serious about making electric cars in volume (the other being Nissan, which makes fine cars for a lower-end market).

I am very disappointed in Musk over this, but my Model 3 is the same car as it was before he decided to speculate in btc. And Tesla is still the leader in the transition to electric transportation and a significant player (if not the leader?) in battery production for storing sustainably-produced electricity. (My Powerwalls still run my house all night while my solar panels are inactive.)

As for Musk making himself rich, every CEO and every wealthy businessperson is motivated by a desire for more money. Most of them pollute the world while doing it or skim profit off the stock market without producing anything. Musk has done a lot of stupid things. But he's also the person most responsible for the fact that electric cars today are way more than golf carts.
Good points made.

I do not expect our govt to allow bitcoin to challenge its dominance. It will be outlawed, or nationalized in a sense of making us dollar crypto....and they are now using bitcoin as a guinea pig to test it....I believe EMs is a genuinely good guy who just wants to be on the cutting edge of everything....whats more old school than dollars?