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Does Repeated Supercharging Shorten Life of Battery Even at 90%?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by badboy1980, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. badboy1980

    badboy1980 Member

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    Dear All,

    I literally live next to a supercharger and use that more frequently to charge my vehicle than at home (I have free super charging).

    What impact, if any, does that have on the battery? For example does it shorten the life of the battery? Has anybody had actual experience of this?

    Your feedback would be most welcomed. Thanks!
     
  2. AMPUP

    AMPUP Member

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    #2 AMPUP, Mar 1, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    To answer your question simply, the answer is YES it will, well maybe.... when, if and how? Who knows..

    To make an observation and don't take this the wrong way as it's been debated a million times over on this forum , Suoerchargers are 'meant' for long distance travel, road trips etc not to save a few bucks each week when you can charge at home.

    On a personal note, I'm always amused that folks will spend an hour at a supercharger rather than charge at home , My hour is worth more to me than $3-$4
     
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  3. GSP

    GSP Member

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    IIRC, most of the evidence suggests that supercharging does not have a measurable impact on battery life.

    Keeping the battery from charge levels above 90% and avoiding high battery temperatures will help life.

    Enjoy your S!

    GSP
     
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  4. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    Supercharging only harms the battery when it's done by locals.
     
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  5. Robwoodruff

    Robwoodruff Member

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    I read a study somewhere that the Teslas that used more super charges actually had better battery performance at 4 years than the cars that rarely used supercharges. Something about the battery heating and cooling.
     
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  6. GlmnAlyAirCar

    GlmnAlyAirCar Member

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    I read somewhere that using a supercharger daily will increase your 70KWh battery to a 100KWh, give you ludicrous mode, and upgrade your classic to AP2 hardware. I just can't remember where...
     
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  7. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    #7 sorka, Mar 1, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    The answer should be that supercharging degrades battery life but anecdotal evidence is pointing to the opposite. A clue can be found here around minute 6:



    In which Dahn says that it's not how fast you charge it but how long it spends charging because more time at raised temperature increases parasitic reactions.

    The thermal management will keep the battery from rising above x temperature. If you charge at home at 40 amps on a moderate to warm day, the AC will eventually kick in to cool the battery and keep it at x temperature. Say you charge for 4 hours on an 85 to get a 50% SOC increase. The battery has spent 4 hours at x temperature incurring degradation from parasitic reactions.

    Now say you supercharge. The battery should get a lot hotter, right? Not necessarily. The thermal cooling will kick in at a much higher rate when needed to keep the battery at the same x temperature threshold. So now you've only spent 20 minutes for the same range and same battery temperature vs 4 hours at 40 amps.

    He clearly states that it's not the rate at which you charge but how long the battery stays warm from charging. So if you can charge fast and use energy to keep the battery cool, it will last longer than if you spend more hours charging the battery at the same temperature regardless of the charge rate.

    Note, I'm comparing a moderate charging speed in moderate to warm weather to supercharging. Charging at 1.2KW from 110v will not result in any consequential battery temperature increase so that would be the best way to treat the battery even though it takes 1.5 days to get the same 50% increase in SOC.

    I guess what I just said is that I think charging at moderate speeds causes the most degradation while supercharging or super slow charging causes the least.

    So what I want to say is, no don't supercharge because you'll ruin your battery but I suspect it's not even remotely true.

    So instead I'm going to say, be responsible and don't locally charge especially if there's a line of people who are passing through on long distance trips. I can't STAND local chargers because here in the Bay Area, most of the folks charging are doing so to save money from charging at home.

    Tesla's change in unlimited couldn't come fast enough for new cars and idling policy for all cars. Hopefully they will tighten down the free for life to actually enforce the "for long distance travel" disclaimer that they put on their site back in early 2015. I suspect those that bought befor ethen won't have to adhere to a "long distance only" charging policy since Tesla's didn't say "for long distance only" prior to that.
     
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  8. Zextraterrestrial

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    ^^
    this is an interesting factor to consider- temp vs time at SOC for each charging type etc


    If you are living in the Bay area the cost of living is so high that I cant see using a SC to just save money. I hope the 'problem' is more that over the last 20 years or more they have built up so many townhouses/apartments that cost a hell of a lot of money to live in and don't have charging or not nearly enough. MV and Sunnyvale for example seem to have changed a hell of a lot since I lived down there.
     
  9. TR5642

    TR5642 Member

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    I actually recall reading this same counterintuitive result of real data. I can't seem to find it at the moment but perhaps later. It was a multi year study of degradation on a large set of cars. Data clearly showed no additional degradation on the cars with frequent SC, and indications of potentially better performance.
     
  10. jlund

    jlund Member

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    For those who (rightly) are hesitant to recommend local supercharging and suggest your time is worth more than the savings, I just want to point out to others listening to take each supercharging station location individually. Not everyone lives in similar congested locations like the bay area or has cheap electricity. I also live 5 min from a supercharger. It's conveniently located to all my local stores, costs ~$17 to charge 80% (tier 2 in Canada) after annual 400kw, and almost never has more than 2 cars simulateously charging.

    For those in a similar situation with unlimited supercharging, I think charging every time you go shopping or is even remotely convenient, makes sense to me as long as degradation isn't a measurable thing. Which sounds like the effects are neglegable or even possibly positive on longevity.

    Based on: Tesla Supercharger calculator aims to compute true cost of travel I'm looking at saving ~$850 a year if I supercharge at least once a week rather than at home!

    At least it's my plan when mine finally arrives! :D
     
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  11. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    Do you live in Squamish?

    Would you still be doing that if you arrived and only one or two spots were open?
     
  12. jlund

    jlund Member

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    Ha, Yes I live in Squamish :)

    And no, if I was charging for savings, I would not charge even if only half the stalls were taken since the charges are connected in pairs. Ike I said, when I'm shopping or at that parking lot, I have never seen more than 1 or 2 cars supercharging. I imagine there are spikes on long weekend trips to Whistler though. And more spikes to come as Tesla ramps up :D
     
  13. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    Please let us know if you get this letter...


    tesla-supercharging-note-1.jpg tesla-supercharging-note-2.jpg
     
  14. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    You must have high electricity rates. My TOU off peak is 10 cents / kwh. If I charged from 25 to 75% once a week, that would save me a about $200 / year vs doing it at home.
     
  15. jareade

    jareade Supporting Member

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    @Canuck, are you aware of anyone receiving that letter since that horribly conceived (and received) email/letter was sent in August 2015?
     
  16. jlund

    jlund Member

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    @Canuck,

    1) I think Tesla are well aware that they they leveraged "unlimited supercharging" beyond 400kw a year as a quarterly sales tactic
    1a) My sales, owner, and delivery specialist have all commented that living in Squamish is and commuting to Vancouver as an excellent reason to buy a Tesla while unlimited supercharging is available.
    2) "unlimited supercharging" is guaranteed whether you live near or far from a supercharger. It's unlimited usage as you please that can not be revoked.
    3) Out of respect of fellow owners and nothing to do with Tesla, I would not charge locally if the stations were at 50% or higher in occupancy

    I understand your opinions and feelings may differ on the matter.
     
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  17. DarkMatter

    DarkMatter Member

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    I have Unlimited. I will not use it unless I'm on a trip, because I want Tesla to succeed and I can afford the cost of the electricity at home. No matter whether I am 'entitled' to it or not, it's still money out of their budget.
     
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  18. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    I hear it quickly has a degradation effect on your reputation with other Tesla owners and enthusiasts.
     
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  20. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

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    Devils advocate: a 100D could load about $20 worth of juice at 20c/kWh (my rate in Sydney in USD equivalent).
    I wouldn't cross the street to pick up a few bucks, but I sure might for $20.
     

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