Don't take your hands off the wheel

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I am flying a 737, but I don't think money is the matter. If the car AP is not aporoved for city driving, it shouldn't engage in city. The car has a gps hence it knows where it is.

OK, so we understand why we are talking about different things in aircraft. Still, that makes me even less convinced that the comparison is relevant.

When talking about Tesla and personal vehicles, it's not "approved" for anything... it's a beta product, not yet ready for full functionality, but the customer is free to use it if they understand and accept the limitations. We can argue about whether a customer should be allowed to use a beta product or whether that's a wise/reasonable/whatever decision on Tesla's part, but the fact is that's how they offer it. I think your complaints with it would be 100% valid if it were offered as proven, tested, fully-functional released software: but they're not.

 

[wcorey]

Further, if random people talking on an internet forum can tank a stock, then the stock is overvalued.

That I actually do agree with. BTW, you can own the very first Roadster ever built (I'd give you an award for that but am fresh out of awards) and still short the stock. Owning the product doesn't mean a relationship of unwavering love exists. How long you've been involved with the company is exactly of zero interest to me. I reported to a guy who bought one used...it's a toy. In the late 70's we called that conspicuous consumption. But that was the point of it.

 

[wcorey]

We can argue about whether a customer should be allowed to use a beta product or whether that's a wise/reasonable/whatever decision on Tesla's part, but the fact is that's how they offer it.

What makes AI, specifically deep learning different than most software people are familiar with either by having used it or having written/designed it is, just as a child -> adult learn, they learn by doing. Consequently Tesla was incentivized to have hundreds of thousands of units in the field sending back data on what works and what doesn't. NoA, for instance, does not process traffic signals or signs or intersecting traffic so it is only allowed to work on limited access highways, effectively the interstate highway system. Once they feel it has sufficient knowledge to handle traffic patterns, signs, lights and traffic, they'll allow it to work in a guided fashion on back roads or in cities. The reason hands have to be on the steering wheel is it provides effectively, training wheels via a licensed driver. I do perceive you understand that and can offer up a valid indictment on the process. I'm pretty sure if I thought about it so could I but I happen to think the greater good is served by Tesla owners acting in good faith providing those training wheels.

Full disclosure: The main rationale for my purchase is my wife and I are getting close to that point where, statistically, our kids should be urging us to turn in our drivers licenses. The Tesla is meant to future-proof our mobility. And, yeah, it doesn't require fossil fuel.

 

[adam0785]

What makes AI, specifically deep learning different than most software people are familiar with either by having used it or having written/designed it is, just as a child -> adult learn, they learn by doing. Consequently Tesla was incentivized to have hundreds of thousands of units in the field sending back data on what works and what doesn't.

So how long does it take to "learn" the difference between bridges and semi-trucks (the largest object on a highway)? I'm not convinced there is a "learning neural network" ---there is no evidence of such -- if you have evidence please enlighten us.

"neural net" =! tesla employees analyzing video footage post-accident

 

[wcorey]

So how long does it take to "learn" the difference between bridges and semi-trucks (the largest object on a highway)? I'm not convinced there is a "learning neural network" ---there is no evidence of such -- if you have evidence please enlighten us.

You're not in the software industry, are you?
There are plenty of primers on Neural Networks and the meaning of a neuron in CS terminology so I suggest you acquaint yourself with Google and find some. As for the latest Delray Beach fatality. I have a theory which I am not going to put to print. The NTSB report was worded oddly. I suspect that stretch of road is not NoA capable. To say AP was on is like saying there was weather. At this point AP has three components TACC, AutoSteer, and NoA. A double tap could initiate AutoSteer or NoA. If you dbl tap, AP is active, but in AutoSteer, should you manually accelerate beyond 5 MPH, you get a message, I believe says, "AP is overridden". It doesn't say disable. Presumably if you decelerate it becomes active again. The driver was in a 55mph area doing 68 mph. The side of an 18 wheeler trailer is metal, it reflects radar. I don't see how, at this point, the software did not detect an obstacle, unless... As I've said elsewhere rather than better graphics Tesla should show footage of a car braking for a tractor trailer or if not, fix it now. Leaving this up in the air is simply not helpful to anyone.

 

[niray9]

Tesla's Updated Navigate on Autopilot Requires Significant Driver Intervention

 

[Fernand]

One detail. They say the car "braked" to squeeze into a lane change.
I've seen it slow down gently to do that, and then speed up, but
never brake. They don't seem to understand how "single pedal"
speed regulation works. I don't see anything wrong in the operation,
it's the same thing we all do to squeeze into an exit lane. With the
12.1.2 update it seems to do these lane squeezes much smoother.

It doesn't seem the CR people really took time to get familiar with the
system. Their report isn't entirely inaccurate, but it's the impression of
a very nervous novice, that IMHO they then over-generalize and start
speculating about the technology way over their "pay grade".

 

[niray9]

hey then over-generalize and start
speculating about the technology way over their "pay grade".

They're evaluating it as a user/driver and not as a Autonomous driving technology developer. CR has a long experience evaluating cars and initially gave 99 or 100 to Tesla Model S(highest rating for any car ever). For me, CR is a gold standard as far as honesty in car reviews.

 

[Fernand]

There's no doubt that this Consumer Reports article is
going to hurt. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that's not very
constructive.

OK. I give up. Elon Musk is a fraud, the Tesla company is
all thin air, imaginary Neural Network technology has been
filling fake computer science research journals for years,
those chips they developed are actually running relay logic
from rotary dialing switchboards, the moon landings never
happened, my EAP Mod 3 is actually out to kill me so Illuminati
lizards can eat my flesh, renewable energy is vastly inferior
to clean coal, and I'm wasting my time even thinking about it.
.

 

[wcorey]

For me, CR is a gold standard as far as honesty in car reviews.

In my opinion, they were. It's not clear if they are now. They don't seem to understand AI. Not even related to AI is a review they gave my riding lawn mower, prompting me to purchase it. It had 3 major failures in it's first year.

 

[Fernand]

I've been thinking about this CR review, and there are too
many points they dwell on, that I've never seen in practice.

Like that "passing on the right", that they consulted with many
police and others on.

Or their claim about having to go back to menus to cancel
the current trip's NOA mode once it's enabled for all trips.
That's incorrect. All it takes is a tap on the main navigation
screen's blue NOA button if you want to turn it off for the
current trip.

Actually on many of their "issues" I don't understand what they
are talking about. I think it's misleading how much they focused
on trivia, relative to the day to day experience of someone
who's had time to get familiar with, and is realistically using,
the current "autopilot" modes, i.e. not expecting the car to
do everything for the driver. Sure, they Report for "average"
Consumers. But you wouldn't review a bicycle from the point
of view of someone who doesn't know how to shift gears.

 

[Fernand]

Between the window smashings, the negative
press and all the whining, it's getting to be very
unpleasant. I didn't quite expect this experience.
.

 

[strider]

That I actually do agree with. BTW, you can own the very first Roadster ever built (I'd give you an award for that but am fresh out of awards) and still short the stock. Owning the product doesn't mean a relationship of unwavering love exists. How long you've been involved with the company is exactly of zero interest to me. I reported to a guy who bought one used...it's a toy. In the late 70's we called that conspicuous consumption. But that was the point of it.

By the same logic I can also criticize a company without having a financial interest in it (which was my whole point). But any criticism of Tesla here on TMC immediately gets you accused of shorting the stock.

Management as a career is of interest to me and I've both lived and studied a large amount of it over the years. I'm simply calling it like I see it, banging away on a keyboard to post my opinions on an Internet forum, which is what all of us are doing.

I'm not sure what the point of your "toy" comment was but the Roadster was my Daily Driver for over 6 years when I lived in the Bay Area. And short of getting a flat tire one day it dutifully got me to work and home each day. Back in 2010 I changed roles at my company and instead of commuting to SFO I was commuting on 101 every day. I bought the Roadster for HOV lane access. I was planning to buy a Leaf but at the time the waiting list was like a year as it hadn't come out yet. We were able to afford the Roadster and my wife and I decided that being home an extra hour per day was worth the money (this was back when HOV access actually helped with travel times) so we bought it. If the M3 was available back then we wold have bought that.

 

[wcorey]

Between the window smashings, the negative
press and all the whining, it's getting to be very
unpleasant. I didn't quite expect this experience.
.

What did you expect? The window smashing appears to be a localized phenomenon to SF. Negative press? meh, it's a target, they don't advertise, they are outside the financial means of most people, it's the age of social media where, no matter how despicable you are, you can always find people who agree with you. Whining...It would be interesting to plot whining by age.
Here's the first, last, and only question you need ask yourself, do you like the car? If you do, other people's opinions aren't necessary or required. If you don't...other people's opinions aren't necessary or required.

 

[Fernand]

I like the car plenty. I like and respect Musk a lot. Hardly the issue.

 

[wcorey]

I like the car plenty. I like and respect Musk a lot. Hardly the issue.

GOOD! Because when it comes to your car, yours, and perhaps your significant other's, opinion are all that really matter.

 

[XLR82XS]

My first full day of ownership the car aggressively swerved into the right lane with a truck JUST beyond the blind spot. Thankfully my reaction time is fast and I corrected the car back to the lane I was in. I've raced cars for years and it takes a lot to shock me, especially on public roads, but this AP move was scary. Hasn't occurred again but I'm only about 400 miles into ownership.

- 2019.28.2
- Sunny Florida afternoon
- ~45mph
- Straight 2-lane road

 

[StellarRat]

Tesla's Updated Navigate on Autopilot Requires Significant Driver Intervention

I agree with this assessment. BUT, it's extremely dependent on the traffic density. It does fine on well marked freeways with medium to light traffic in my experience. The auto lane change does need work and is basically unusable in heavy traffic. It's far too timid and doesn't seem to understand about not moving into overtaking cars until the last minute. It also takes far too long to make a lane change and that is another factor in it's problems with heavier traffic. In light to medium traffic it's fine. All that said, Tesla has never said that you don't have to monitor and be ready to take control when running under EAP.

 

[MaryAnning3]

My first full day of ownership the car aggressively swerved into the right lane with a truck JUST beyond the blind spot. Thankfully my reaction time is fast and I corrected the car back to the lane I was in. I've raced cars for years and it takes a lot to shock me, especially on public roads, but this AP move was scary. Hasn't occurred again but I'm only about 400 miles into ownership.

- 2019.28.2
- Sunny Florida afternoon
- ~45mph
- Straight 2-lane road

Really strange. I have used EAP a lot and never had a problem like that.

 

[MaryAnning3]

My first full day of ownership the car aggressively swerved into the right lane with a truck JUST beyond the blind spot. Thankfully my reaction time is fast and I corrected the car back to the lane I was in. I've raced cars for years and it takes a lot to shock me, especially on public roads, but this AP move was scary. Hasn't occurred again but I'm only about 400 miles into ownership.

- 2019.28.2
- Sunny Florida afternoon
- ~45mph
- Straight 2-lane road

Do you have a lot of experience using EAP in other Teslas?