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hobbes

Active Member
Feb 11, 2013
3,882
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Germany
Now that TSLA seems to keep climbing, it seems posts discussing early retirement come up frequently. I would like to use this thread to adress optimizing this process, maybe people who already are in the fortunate position of not having to work any more can chime in.

Questions that come to mind are
  • How much should my portfolio be worth before calling in rich, depending on
    • age/life expectation of life
    • needed monthly income
    • region where you live (changes cost of living and insurance, for example)
  • Should I just keep selling shares on a monthly basis etc. (higher gains in the long run) or transfer larger amounts to other, more stable investments (less surprises in the short term)
  • Who should I tell, and what should I tell them ;)?
For myself I think my TSLA portfolio still has to double or triple before I seriously start thinking about that, but who knows how quick that might happen at the current rate! Also, this is by far the dominant part of my net worth by now.
 
One retirement rule of thumb is that if your annual retirement expenses totals 3-4% of your retirement portfolio, you can retire. The logic is that at that draw rate you will never appreciably impact the principal of your portfolio.

This was one post I found helpful. I understand it as putting all of your portfolio into a more stable investment than TSLA (like a fund or real estate) would give you 3-4% per year and thus take care of your financial needs, correct?
 
Here's a book on that subject:

The Number: What Do You Need for the Rest of Your Life and What Will It Cost? by Lee Eisenberg

Do you know your Number? What happens if you don't make it to your Number? Do you have a plan? The Number is no ordinary finance book—it offers an intriguing and entertaining tour of weath gurus, life coaches, and financial advisers, and our hopes and fears for the future. The result is a provocative field guide to your psyche and finances and an urgently useful book for anyone over thirty.​
 
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I “envy” those who here can or could retire at 40! Congrats! In my case as I said that when TSLA reach 850, it hit my goal. 4% rule that give you 150k to 200k a year would make most of us a comfortable retirement life. But before you reach 65, the health insurance can cost you about $25000 plus a year for a family of 4. I said to my wife that maybe you should go and find a job that provide us health insurance. You know what she said to me? “ You are greedy!” :D With that I am getting more greedy and will wait $1200 TSLA. As you might noticed, I am hardcore Long of TSLA and very patient. Enjoy Folks!
 
I “envy” those who here can or could retire at 40! Congrats! In my case as I said that when TSLA reach 850, it hit my goal. 4% rule that give you 150k to 200k a year would make most of us a comfortable retirement life. But before you reach 65, the health insurance can cost you about $25000 plus a year for a family of 4. I said to my wife that maybe you should go and find a job that provide us health insurance. You know what she said to me? “ You are greedy!” :D With that I am getting more greedy and will wait $1200 TSLA. As you might noticed, I am hardcore Long of TSLA and very patient. Enjoy Folks!
can we please wait till the stonk hits $4000 to talk about retirement?
 
Now that TSLA seems to keep climbing, it seems posts discussing early retirement come up frequently. I would like to use this thread to adress optimizing this process, maybe people who already are in the fortunate position of not having to work any more can chime in.

I believe 1000 TSLA shares would be fine to retire comfortably.
 
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This was one post I found helpful. I understand it as putting all of your portfolio into a more stable investment than TSLA (like a fund or real estate) would give you 3-4% per year and thus take care of your financial needs, correct?

I posted this over on the investment thread but it bears repeating. Yes, definitely. One's portfolio should shift to more stable holdings the closer one gets to retirement. It just wouldn't do to be forced to become a Wal Mart greeter in order to buy groceries just because of a market shift at age 70.

And while this is a fun and useful topic to discuss online, the value of a good financial advisor can't be denied. These folks help people plan for retirement every single day. They have insights and wisdom that's invaluable. Beginning a discussion with "I'd like to retire in X years. Can we work together to make that possible?" is a perfectly valid launching point.

Also, there are some useful retirement calculators online that are fun to play with. The caveat of such tools; however, is that they are only as good as the assumptions that they are fed, so use caution.

Here's a link to three useful retirement calculators that I've been playing with:

The 3 Best Free Retirement Calculators - Can I Retire Yet?
 
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First you need to figure out your monthly expenses, including funds you would like to use for recreation. Once you have that you can work backwards to figure out how much money you need invested to support yourself indefinitely from dividend income / appreciation alone. The magic number will be different for everyone.

Once I have enough money invested I'll move it to a combination of bonds and ETF's, relatively "stable" investments with low risk. I plan to retire early but HOW early is what I'm working on now. Honestly as long as my investment income can comfortably carry me until my sizable 401K and Roth IRA kick in I will be retiring early, if the principal drops slightly in between then I won't fret over it. I want a large cushion between the two for just in case purposes though. Having too much money is not a problem after all.
 
Yes, definitely. One's portfolio should shift to more stable holdings the closer one gets to retirement. It just wouldn't do to be forced to become a Wal Mart greeter in order to buy groceries just because of a market shift at age 70.
Or pizza delivery. The number of pizza delivery guys in their 50s and 60s is massively depressing.
 
The standard 4% rule and corresponding mechanism are based on work done by Bill Bengen (I'm Bill Bengen, and I first proposed the 4% safe withdrawal rate in 1994. Ask me anything! : financialindependence ) in 1994 (http://www.retailinvestor.org/pdf/Bengen1.pdf ), and later analyzed by the "Trinity Study" (Trinity study - Wikipedia ) in 1998.

Here's how it works: During the first year of retirement, you withdraw up to 4% of the total portfolio worth. During the second year, you adjust that resulting dollar amount by inflation (the "CPI"). For "normal, good" portfolios this will last you at least 30 years. The Trinity study back-tested this plan using historical data. Other studies have used Monte-Carlo simulations as a test, but the problems with that are they present scenarios that are unlikely and even almost impossible to happen.

This assumes you are invested in a market-tracking vehicle like the S&P 500 (one example is the VOO ETF from Vanguard). If you invest better, you can withdraw more. If you invest poorly, you run out of money.

Because the first year withdrawal is 4% of the portfolio, the rule of thumb is that you need 25X the amount of money you spend in a year to retire. Note that Bengen subsequently revised the number upwards to 4.5%, so you only need a bit over 22.2X a yearly amount.

The issue on which most people focus is when you have a couple/few bad years in your portfolio, yet continue to withdraw the same CPI-adjusted amounts. As we've seen even in the 2008 "Great Recession," portfolio balances can be dramatically cut in size, say by 50% or even more. Imagine your portfolio being cut in half, yet you continue to withdraw money from it - the results can be you run out of money even when the portfolio starts earning again. This is especially true early on - the math works out that having your portfolio balance drop significantly in the first few years of retirement can be devastating. With the current 10 year plus economy boom still going, some people expect another recession soon, so retiring now may (or may not) be riskier.

Remember, being retired is different. When you're working and earning money outside the market it's easy to say "well, I'll just withdraw less each year," but if that's your ONLY source of income (outside of Social Security, which frankly isn't much), then withdrawing less means a serious hurt to your lifestyle. And if you're still paying a mortgage or have other obligations, that may simply not be practical.

The other side of this, of course, is whether you keep doing the kind of investment style that landed you in TSLA in the first place, or whether you become more risk-adverse. Again, when you're young and earning money from a job/business you have high tolerance for a portfolio that is stagnant or loses money for a few years. But, when you depend on that portfolio as your primary source of income, you may find you have less tolerance for losses. Most of us won't want to re-enter the workforce in our early 80s, for instance. That said, I personally do expect to continue to be more aggressive in at least part of my portfolio. This is a personal choice, but everyone should understand the risks and look at the history of returns. Note that Bengen himself thinks the number can be as high as 7% for the initial withdrawal if you don't run into a bear market early on in retirement.

In terms of history, this is a decent article: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4319198-retired-retiring-soon-yes-worry-correction which identified the best-performing period as starting in 1900, which caught the rise of the market to its peak in 1929. Unfortunately, the next 4 years wiped out roughly 85% of those gains. However, outside of that one period, all of the other periods fared worse than investing at lower valuations. (Note: starting at 1993 is still currently running, as its 30-year period will end in 2023.)

Those able to retire younger than 65, or expect to live well past 90, need some different math for a few reasons: 1) a portfolio that lasts only 25 years might run out for them at 65 or 70, and 2) since they retire young they're more likely to spend a lot during the early part of their retirement since they're more active. It costs more to ski in Switzerland than to take a bus tour through some vineyards in Italy. And 3) Healthcare costs since you won't have a employer-sponsored health care plan.

From Bengen's reddit post:
The "4% rule" is actually the "4.5% rule"- I modified it some years ago on the basis of new research. The 4.5% is the percentage you could "safely" withdraw from a tax-advantaged portfolio (like an IRA, Roth IRA, or 401(k)) the first year of retirement, with the expectation you would live for 30 years in retirement. After the first year, you "throw away" the 4.5% rule and just increase the dollar amount of your withdrawals each year by the prior year's inflation rate. Example: $100,000 in an IRA at retirement. First year withdrawal $4,500. Inflation first year is 10%, so second-year withdrawal would be $4,950. Now, on to your specific question. I find that the state of the "economy" had little bearing on safe withdrawal rates. Two things count: if you encounter a major bear market early in retirement, and/or if you experience high inflation during retirement. Both factors drive the safe withdrawal rate down. My research is based on data about investments and inflation going back to 1926. I test the withdrawal rates for retirement dates beginning on the first day of each quarter, beginning with January 1, 1926. The average safe withdrawal rate for all those 200+ retirees is, believe it or not, 7%! However, if you experience a major bear market early in retirement, as in 1937 or 2000, that drops to 5.25%. Add in heavy inflation, as occurred in the 1970's, and it takes you down to 4.5%. So far, I have not seen any indication that the 4.5% rule will be violated. Both the 2000 and 2007 retirees, who experienced big bear markets early in retirement, appear to be doing OK with 4.5%. However, if we were to encounter a decade or more of high inflation, that might change things. In my opinion, inflation is the retiree's worst enemy. As your "time horizon" increases beyond 30 years, as you might expect, the safe withdrawal rate decreases. For example for 35 years, I calculated 4.3%; for 40 years, 4.2%; and for 45 years, 4.1%. I have a chart listing all these in a book I wrote in 2006, but I know Reddit frowns on self-promotion, so that is the last I will have to say about that. If you plan to live forever, 4% should do it.
 
I “envy” those who here can or could retire at 40! Congrats! In my case as I said that when TSLA reach 850, it hit my goal. 4% rule that give you 150k to 200k a year would make most of us a comfortable retirement life. But before you reach 65, the health insurance can cost you about $25000 plus a year for a family of 4. I said to my wife that maybe you should go and find a job that provide us health insurance. You know what she said to me? “ You are greedy!” :D With that I am getting more greedy and will wait $1200 TSLA. As you might noticed, I am hardcore Long of TSLA and very patient. Enjoy Folks!

I think the 4% rule of retirement doesn’t really apply to TSLA. It basically assumes as you withdraw 4%, your investment will grow with the same amount so you won’t ever be running out of money.

I believe TSLA will easily grow 10% a year so you could be safe to retire taking out 10% of your investment, without ever depleting your account.

In other words, if your account is worth $2M and you need $200K per year to live your life comfortably, you can retire!
 
Speaking as someone who did this at 50 (now 63) with roughly the same net worth as I started with, you need a plan that includes a question I have not yet heard, and that is how long are you planning for (how long do you think you will live in other words)? and what if anything do you want to leave to your estate, your children etc. Tax strategy can be essential but much depends on where you live and your current age. Same issue with healthcare which WILL become an issue at some point somewhere in your life. The hardest thing to do is to plan for things you have not yet experienced. Take what you think you will need now and for the future and double it.

The best way to retire comfortably and with peace of mind is to build a portfolio that will create your income in a tax advantaged way, and ideally increases in value to meet inflation at a minimum, and hopefully do better. But this is tricky and requires more up-front investment than many people can accomplish early. I will add that at age 40 I began to understand this, and that my chances of becoming financially independent were unlikely unless I began working for myself and not someone else.
 
If we withdraw 150k+ from our investment or (IRA account when you reach 60), there is not much we can do in terms of tax plan. One thing you can do is to move to no state tax state. For insurance , looks there is way that if you keep enough cash on hand so you do not withdraw any $$$$$$, then you can low cost insurance premium big time because you do not have much income! Am I right on that or we would be criticized for playing the system if we do so?:D
 
I'm targeting 40. At least have the option to quit my job and travel the world. I give it an 80% chance of happening.
“I’ve often been asked, ‘What do older people do once they retire?’ Well, I have a Boomer retired friend who has a chemistry background and one of the things enjoyed most is is turning beer, whiskey, and wine into urine. And, by golly, he’s pretty damn good at it!”
 
This was one post I found helpful. I understand it as putting all of your portfolio into a more stable investment than TSLA (like a fund or real estate) would give you 3-4% per year and thus take care of your financial needs, correct?

As I posted above, this isn't how the calculations are done. If you aspire to live off what your portfolio earns, and keep the balance intact, then you need a much larger portfolio - especially since you have to be able to survive a few years where your portfolio not only doesn't increase in value, but actually decreases.


I think the 4% rule of retirement doesn’t really apply to TSLA. It basically assumes as you withdraw 4%, your investment will grow with the same amount so you won’t ever be running out of money.

I believe TSLA will easily grow 10% a year so you could be safe to retire taking out 10% of your investment, without ever depleting your account.

In other words, if your account is worth $2M and you need $200K per year to live your life comfortably, you can retire!

Er, no. Actually, NO!

You can't treat your portfolio's worth and the economy as any sort of steady-state thing. While the euphoria over TSLA is high right now, remember that we were just in a half-decade of TSLA being very range-bound. It was one of the worst performing parts of my portfolio for years (OK, I juiced it with options, but that's not always do-able and no guarantee of success). Stagnation with TSLA could happen again. And even if you believe in the long term prospects as I continue to do, you'll have to be withdrawing money from your portfolio every year in order to live. Tesla will not grow in a straight upwards line. You need to plan for the worst. Literally.

It can be really hard to get back into the workforce once you've retired. Your skills may no longer be applicable a few years later. Potential employers are less likely to hire older workers (legal or not) as well. You may not have the energy to work full time any more, not to mention if you're being forced to do it it'll be depressing. I strongly advise doing a ton of research and really understanding not only your goals in retirement, but having a realistic income-generating plan.

Now, that doesn't mean going to a financial advisor and putting everything in CDs or bonds with the riskiest thing maybe being the S&P 500 (yes, I've heard of advisors doing that to clients). But, it does mean truly assessing how financially savvy you really are. You don't want to make big mistakes here.
 
“I’ve often been asked, ‘What do older people do once they retire?’ Well, I have a Boomer retired friend who has a chemistry background and one of the things enjoyed most is is turning beer, whiskey, and wine into urine. And, by golly, he’s pretty damn good at it!”
OT
@JustSaying
Well, in no particular order, studying quantum physics, get 2-3,000 18650 Li batteries and build powerwall, swim in _heated_ pool, visit Kaua’i twice so far, (no you cannot visit Tesla PV array off Maalo road out of Lihue) drive cross country a few times, register folks to vote, educate folks on PV solar systems, nap, get new knees (2) hip (1), read, read, facet gemstones, read TMC, nuff?
 
Re. the 4% rule (which some think should be the 4.5% rule and others think can be the 3.5% or 3% rule):

It all depends on whether you're willing to adjust your lifestyle or go back to work if the next 10 years happen to be some of the worst on record ("sequence of returns risk"). The 4-4.5% rule is great for people retiring at 65, because they probably have a pretty fixed lifestyle and a limited ability to work. For someone retiring at 40 or 45, _if_ you happen to hit a bad run of years you can curtail some leisure spending or get a job for a couple of years to weather the storm. If you're willing to take on that sequence of returns risk, a 3-3.5% rule is fine.

For me personally, my numbers (at age 37, assuming 4%) are $2m for basic spending with state funded healthcare, add $500k for each of self funded healthcare, and leisure spending so $3m to be "securely" retired with nearly 0 chance of having to curtail spending or go back to work.

As a small time $TSLA holder I'd need it to hit $2750/share to get to my $3m "secure" number, at which point I'd diversify and retire soon. I definitely might pull the trigger at less than $3m, deciding to take the sequence of returns risk and/or banking on state healthcare.

edit: Only a portion of my net worth is in $TSLA, I'm not _that_ crazy.
 
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Those able to retire younger than 65, or expect to live well past 90, need some different math for a few reasons: 1) a portfolio that lasts only 25 years might run out for them at 65 or 70, and 2) since they retire young they're more likely to spend a lot during the early part of their retirement since they're more active. It costs more to ski in Switzerland than to take a bus tour through some vineyards in Italy. And 3) Healthcare costs since you won't have a employer-sponsored health care plan.

It's not a portfolio that lasts 25 years. It's a portfolio that statistically has a _very_ high chance of lasting forever. It'd last 25 years if you invested it all in TIPS, indefinite if you invest in S&P500.