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I was thinking about joining the class action if it makes it that far, but I can't, in good conscience, join it if I never felt duped. I researched on Edmunds, Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, and IIHS before buying. The articles raved about the performance, UI, minimalist but comfortable interior, and crash test safety rating (which were some of the highest scores in the industry). I read about build quality issues with the Model Y, which they said should be inspected carefully before taking delivery. I even read about phantom braking issues with Autopilot, but I quickly found that other car makers were having the same problem, so I assumed it'll get resolved over time (which it has).

Guess I'm a unique buyer, and the only one who won't be in the "class". 😢
 
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You can't even take a test drive in many cases.


Edit: that's what people say, but on Tesla's website it says "Schedule a Test Drive". CAN you take a test drive then? Why do people say you can't?
In our case last June, we couldn't take a test drive because they didn't have a car! They had sold them all I think. We were insanely lucky because they had a car just like we wanted (YLR / blue / white / tow / 19") that had been double ordered and not cancelled so two cars had come in for someone and the second one was up for grabs. We bought it on the spot - not even prepped! I had never ridden in a Tesla, let alone driven one, until I drove it off the lot! The whole thing was surreal. Sure beats buying gas for 6-9 months!

So, forget Robotaxis, all we need to do is start selling test drives to the public!
What should be the price?

P.S. I was all hot to buy FSD before the price went up but my wife wouldn't hear of it - she may turn out to be right!
 
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I too have read his Twitter messages before the purchase, but also checked other sources and took his message as somewhat entertaining but also as a tiny bit of a possible future. It was quite obvious to me his dates were never on time, so I have every reason to not expect the same for other Twitter messages.

Having said that, my satisfaction rate towards the ownership of an automobile is all time high right now. I don't feel ripped off, and the features FSD provided so far is enabling me to go to places I wouldn't dare to try before. I'm even looking forward to future improvements, promised by Elon, probably at a later date than he promised but still, better than not getting anything at all. Tesla + FSD is still MUCH better option than anything else in this price range, at least for me.

I guess your mileage may vary, but at least Tesla has at least one super satisfied customer. 😅
 
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I was thinking about joining the class action if it makes it that far, but I can't, in good conscience, join it if I never felt duped. I researched on Edmunds, Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, and IIHS before buying. The articles raved about the performance, UI, minimalist but comfortable interior, and crash test safety rating (which were some of the highest scores in the industry). I read about build quality issues with the Model Y, which they said should be inspected carefully before taking delivery. I even read about phantom braking issues with Autopilot, but I quickly found that other car makers were having the same problem, so I assumed it'll get resolved over time (which it has).

Guess I'm a unique buyer, and the only one who won't be in the "class". 😢
The class action was bought by a plaintiff who paid $5,000 extra for “full self driving” and never received full self driving. Your post has nothing to do with that. I’m totally satisfied with my car and at the same time think that Tesla and Elon are liars about FSD and anybody who purchased it deserves a full refund.
 
Most class action suits are settled out of court and the average settlement presently is somewhat over $50 M US. Let's say that roughly 100,000 owners of FSD join the class action and Tesla settles for $100 M US. I doubt that Tesla would settle given Elon's rasty behavior. But let's assume they settle. That means that those individuals would get $1,000 each, right? Wrong. First, I doubt that Tesla would settle and agree that the class members derived zero benefit from using FSD. Calculating fractional benefit could be tricky, since purchasing details and duration of benefit are both so variable among FSD users.

And then there's the plantiff's legal fees. When one considers all these factors it's possible that the actual settlement per person could be in the hundreds of dollars. Add to that, the legal process could take years. At this point in time, you'd probably be better off buying Tesla stock than counting on a windfall from a class action suit.
 
The class action was bought by a plaintiff who paid $5,000 extra for “full self driving” and never received full self driving. Your post has nothing to do with that. I’m totally satisfied with my car and at the same time think that Tesla and Elon are liars about FSD and anybody who purchased it deserves a full refund.
One of the interesting things about this story is that some reports are saying the class action was brought by a plaintiff who did not, in fact, purchase Full Self Driving. Briggs Matsko, according to this article,
"paid $5,000 to option his 2018 Model X with Enhanced Autopilot".

Now of course this detail could be wrong. Maybe he did buy FSD back when it was $5,000. That's what I thought until I read a couple of contrary references. Maybe he bought EAP at some point that it was available in the USA for $5,000, which I think would be quite recent. If the latter, it wouldn't make much sense for him to be starting a Class Action when he's not even a member of the Class, he did not purchase FSD and not at a time when his purchase was influenced by the older and more hopeful suggestions on the website.

I will say one thing though. Briggs Matsko is a financial planner by trade. If I had engaged him to manage my life savings, I wouldn't be too happy to find out that he personally had had exercised this misjudgment, in which he "relied" upon optimistic tweets and videos years ago, as part of his research for a significant personal financial decision. Significant enough, apparently, that he now deems himself injured, seeking reimbursement because he feels let down by forward-looking statements tweets that did not play out as hoped. It was pretty easy to find counter-arguments at the time. No thanks, I'll leave my nest egg with someone else.
 
Not sure if it was discussed here, but Tesla recently settled a case in New Mexico related to alleged FSD fraud.
The judge's conclusions (doc #40) are intestering: https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/4n8z2lrc3/new-mexico-district-court/young-v-tesla-inc/
Tesla's response motion to Dismiss seemed so clearcut and like a sure thing. (At least by reading their detailed motion explaining that the plaintiff had NO case, that it was all manufactured "deception and lies".

And yet...Tesla settled.

Im guessing from a risk/reward standpoint, much less risk in a NDA bound settlement than taking a chance, going to fight it, and LOSING. If you lose, theyd have to pay up and then the worst part: legal precedent has been set for other cases to follow suit..
 
Link to doc 40:
Excerpts:
This portion of the website breaks the Full Self-Driving Capability function into two
categories: (1) features listed directly under Full Self-Driving Capability, including navigate to
autopilot, auto lane change, autopark, and summon; and (2) features listed under the subheading
“coming later this year:” including “recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs” and
“automatic driving on city streets”. Doc. 15-1 at 2. I will address the two categories of features
separately.

Read in the light most favorable to Plaintiff, however, in describing what Plaintiff would
get in exchange for the $6,000 Full Self-Driving Capability option, Defendant did promise that
by year’s end the vehicle would be able to “recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop
signs” and “automatic driving on city streets”. Doc. 15-1. Even if this webpage did not promise
the “activation and use” of these features, it at least promised that these features would be
developed. In other words, in defining the term “Full Self-Driving Capability” on its website,
Defendant promised these features by year-end.3
In his complaint, Plaintiff alleges Defendant “fail[ed] to deliver Full Self-Driving Capability on December 31, 2019[.]” Doc. 1-1 ¶ 39.
Plaintiff also alleges Defendant did not deliver any automated driving features by December 31,
2019. Doc. 1-1 ¶¶ 5(i), 44. Plaintiff claims, “Tesla thereby duped Young into sympathizing with
the company’s feigned inability to deliver a non-existent feature that it had fraudulently led him
to believe it had in fact developed and would in fact deliver by December 31, 2019 . . .” Doc. 1-1
¶ 53. He further alleges that Tesla fraudulently solicited and received $6,000 from him for a
“product” the company failed to deliver by December 31, 2019, as promised. Doc. 1-1 ¶ 78. And,
in the “Count 1-Breach of Contract” portion of his complaint, Plaintiff generally alleges that
“$6,000 of the $60,100 consideration paid by Young is expressly for an optional feature called
‘Full Self-Driving Capability’” and that by not providing a vehicle with Full-Self Driving
Capability before the end of 2019, Defendant breached its obligation in the Agreement. Doc. 1-1
at ¶¶ 90, 94-95.
Reading the complaint in the light most favorable to Plaintiff, considering Plaintiff’s pro
se status, and drawing reasonable inferences in Plaintiff’s favor, I read Plaintiff’s complaint as
alleging that Defendant failed to deliver the two features promised in category two. Although
Defendant made no promises as to when its vehicles would be fully automated such that they
could operate safely without human intervention, in connection with the $6,000 Full Self-Driving Capability option, it did promise to stay on a certain track; namely, that by year end the Full SelfDriving Capability Plaintiff paid for would at least include recognizing and responding to traffic
lights and stop signs and automatic driving on city streets. Allegations that Defendant did not
deliver on those two features by the end of the year as promised states a claim for breach of
contract.
As such, I recommend that the Court find that the complaint states a claim for breach of
contract as to the two features “coming later this year” (recognizing and responding to traffic
lights and stop signs and automatic driving on city streets).

CONCLUSION
...
allow leave to amend only as to the fraud count for allegations related to Musk’s
extracontractual statements made during the February 2019 podcast interview.
 
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Not sure if it was discussed here, but Tesla recently settled a case in New Mexico related to alleged FSD fraud.
The judge's conclusions (doc #40) are intestering: https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/4n8z2lrc3/new-mexico-district-court/young-v-tesla-inc/
If I'm reading the case correctly, in this ruling the court found in favor of the plaintiff for the broken promises contained in Tesla not providing the items coming "later this year", namely traffic lights and automatic driving on city streets.

To some extent it seems Tesla has settled with the plaintiff
, presumably monetarily, but we cannot see the terms of the settlement.

The judge appeared to grant Tesla some leeway for regulatory approval not obtained of FSD, even though in my view there's no proof that there is even regulatory disapproval. But I'm no expert.

The judge ruled there is also some disagreement that Full Self Driving Capability does not mean Full. Self. Driving. I believe the judge is ruling that it's a description of a product that does not imply autonomous driving.

I'm not sure if a different case might be ruled differently. There was a lot of talk about what tweets and statements from Elon and Tesla the plaintiff might have read, and whether he read them before or after he bought the car. Anyway the judge seemed to find enough to back up his ruling.

Some relevant excerpts:

The Parties have arrived at a mutually acceptable settlement of this matter. (Doc 48)


Dismiss the breach of contract count for all claims except for the allegations that
Defendant failed to provide the features promised “later this year”: recognize and
respond to traffic lights and stop signs and automatic driving on city streets;

• dismiss the counts for unjust enrichment, civil conversion, negligence per se, and
fraud; and
• allow leave to amend only as to the fraud count for allegations related to Musk’s
extracontractual statements made during the February 2019 podcast interview. (Doc 40)
 
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I find one takeaway from this court case is that Tesla feels they do not have to provide you with any actual Autonomous Driving at all, especially on any given timeline and they will defend against anyone who thinks differently. (Also they will privately settle when they lose, rather than be ruled to pay).

That should really be the thing to remember. You're not going to get a car that drives itself fully. We never said that you would, says Tesla. Although I think they did, or at least that's what we the public understood, because of what they've always been saying to us.
 
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Dismiss the breach of contract count for all claims except for the allegations that
Defendant failed to provide the features promised “later this year”: recognize and
respond to traffic lights and stop signs and automatic driving on city streets;

• dismiss the counts for unjust enrichment, civil conversion, negligence per se, and
fraud; and
• allow leave to amend only as to the fraud count for allegations related to Musk’s
extracontractual statements made during the February 2019 podcast interview. (Doc 40)
I think it’s highly unlikely the court will think Tesla committed any fraud. Breach of contract depending on what the website said when you ordered is the most likely conclusion.
 
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Are people really acting like these statements don't exist and calling other people crazy for posting them?

These are white and black statements.

I omitted so many and i stopped cataloging his statements after end of 2020. Because he just rinse and repeat the same statements.

Imagine if other companies went around everywhere in every public statement saying "This greatest feature/product you have been waiting on will be released in 1 year. I'm certain of it! This is not a question mark. You are a fool if you don't believe me. I am confident we will release it in 1 year. I would be shocked if we don't release it in 1 year. etc"

That company/ceo would get eaten alive. pounced by everyone. But not Tesla/Elon Musk.
He can literally say whatever he wants and gets a free pass.

Feb 19 2019: "We will be feature complete full self driving this year. The car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year. I'm certain of that. That is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination towards the end of next year"

January 2016: "In ~2 years, summon should work anywhere connected by land & not blocked by borders, eg you're in LA and the car is in NY"

May 9th 2019: "We could have gamed an LA/NY Autopilot journey last year, but when we do it this year, everyone with Tesla Full Self-Driving will be able to do it too"

June 2016: "I really consider autonomous driving a solved problem, I think we are less than two years away from complete autonomy, safer than humans, but regulations should take at least another year," Musk said.

March 2017: "I think that [you will be able to fall asleep in a tesla] is about two years"

March 2018: "I think probably by end of next year [end of 2019] self-driving will encompass essentially all modes of driving and be at least 100% to 200% safer than a person."

Nov 15, 2018: "Probably technically be able to [self deliver Teslas to customers doors] in about a year then its up to the regulators"

April 12th 2019: "I think it will require detecting hands on wheel for at least six months.... I think this was all really going to be swept, I mean, the system is improving so much, so fast, that this is going to be a moot point very soon. No, in fact, I think it will become very, very quickly, maybe and towards the end this year, but I say, I'd be shocked if not next year, at the latest that having the person, having human intervene will decrease safety. DECREASE! (in response to human supervision and adding driver monitoring system)"

April 22nd 2019: "We expect to be feature complete in self driving this year, and we expect to be confident enough from our standpoint to say that we think people do not need to touch the wheel and can look out the window sometime probably around the second quarter of next year."

April 22nd 2019: "We expect to have the first operating robot taxi next year with no one in them! One million robot taxis!"

April 29th 2020: "we could see robotaxis in operation with the network fleet next year, not in all markets but in some."

Jan 1, 2021: "Tesla Full Self-Driving will work at a safety level well above that of the average driver this year, of that I am confident. Can’t speak for regulators though."


Jan 27, 2021: "at least 100% safer than a human driver"

I feel like this is a settled argument. Can anyone argue that Elon's predictions about the timeline for FSD (documented above) were NOT wrong, time and time again? If so, I'd love to hear that argument.

He is clearly comfortable making confident statements when the level of uncertainty doesn't warrant such statements. In fact, I believe that when he was making some of his statements above (in 2016 and 2017) Tesla hadn't even seriously BEGUN developing anything that could be called FSD.

But what does that mean for the future of FSD? To me, it means that I take any proclamations from Elon about timelines (beyond just upcoming releases) with a MASSIVE grain of salt. But it does NOT mean that 2022-2025 will look the same as 2016-2020. Why? Because after years of having nothing to show for it, Tesla has released an increasingly capable FSD stack to over 100k cars on the road. And it *seems* to be getting better over time - 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

Do I have any idea when - or if - sleeping in the back seat will be possible with HW3? No, and I don't think Elon does either. But I'm going to get over his years of misleading statements and enjoy the ride from here :)
 
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I think it’s highly unlikely the court will think Tesla committed any fraud. Breach of contract depending on what the website said when you ordered is the most likely conclusion.

Fraud is a totally different beast. You would need more evidence. Maybe internal whistleblowers as well. Someone or something to corroborate that Tesla would’ve knowingly sold FSD without the intention of ever releasing on time. So yea agreed, fraud is unlikely in this kind of case
 
... You would need more evidence. Maybe internal whistleblowers as well. Someone or something to corroborate that Tesla would’ve knowingly sold FSD without the intention of ever releasing on time. ...
Former autopilot team member told me something like this. He said Elons demands were unreasonable. Another former employee told me something like it was a *sugar* show, roughly around 2017. He said they were not following standard engineering best practices like unit tests. Karpathy eluded to something similar, by saying he enforced checking in models and other things.
 
But what does that mean for the future of FSD? To me, it means that I take any proclamations from Elon about timelines (beyond just upcoming releases) with a MASSIVE grain of salt.
Easy to say today. Maybe it's me but I don't think people had that attitude back in 2016/2017 (maybe later). I spent a ton of time prior to purchase on forums like this prior to buying.

But I do not think I'd persue this angle personally. I like it.
 
Easy to say today. Maybe it's me but I don't think people had that attitude back in 2016/2017 (maybe later). I spent a ton of time prior to purchase on forums like this prior to buying.

But I do not think I'd persue this angle personally. I like it.
Agreed, I was a Tesla owner in 2016 (AP1 S) and 2018 (Model 3 with FSD). I assumed Elon had actual developed software to back up his boasts back then, but he didn't, and that was wrong. I guess I'm just saying that doesn't mean their FSD software is vaporware now.
 
Another takeaway: this judge seemed to differ the the TMC legal “experts” in that no, legally speaking, the evidence allowed isn’t exclusive to JUST the FSD wording in the terms. Elons statements, teslas statements were factors as well in Tesla not winning that case nor getting it dismissed from the start
 
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