Elon says no Central Speedometer

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

correction: It does have the necessary redundancy for full autonomy in order to pull over in an emergency situation.

It doesn't have the redundancy to keep on driving autonomously beyond an emergency stop in the event of a system failure.
Remember level 5 doesn't necessarily mean it'll be fully autonomous in every situation imaginable... a human is certainly not capable of dealing with certain situations either.

Until the full autonomy software is perfected though, I agree, be vigilant.

Does AP2 have sufficient back-up power in case of system power loss? (A human can steer and stop a car when power is lost. And even if they can't avoid collision the human can mitigate the impact.)
Does AP2 have multiple, separate computers to allow operation in case one fails?
Can it handle multiple simultaneous camera/radar failures?

I think that full autonomy needs a _lot_ more redundancy.

My view is that Tesla added sufficient hardware for AP2 to allow autonomous operation with human back-up, but they didn't add enough for full autonomy because it would add a lot of hardware cost without current value. Only if/when AP2 reaches autonomy will Tesla add the additional redundant systems.

And this is where I feel that Tesla's approach has been smart: there are a bunch of companies pursuing autonomy whose systems will have no financial value until autonomy is capable enough to eliminate the driver. Tesla's approach is to pursue autonomy and on the way be able to sell increasingly advanced driver assistance capabilities. Tesla's approach has value even if full autonomy is never achieved.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Does AP2 have sufficient back-up power in case of system power loss? (A human can steer and stop a car when power is lost. And even if they can't avoid collision the human can mitigate the impact.)
Does AP2 have multiple, separate computers to allow operation in case one fails?
Can it handle multiple simultaneous camera/radar failures?

I think that full autonomy needs a _lot_ more redundancy.

My view is that Tesla added sufficient hardware for AP2 to allow autonomous operation with human back-up, but they didn't add enough for full autonomy because it would add a lot of hardware cost without current value. Only if/when AP2 reaches autonomy will Tesla add the additional redundant systems.

And this is where I feel that Tesla's approach has been smart: there are a bunch of companies pursuing autonomy whose systems will have no financial value until autonomy is capable enough to eliminate the driver. Tesla's approach is to pursue autonomy and on the way be able to sell increasingly advanced driver assistance capabilities. Tesla's approach has value even if full autonomy is never achieved.

In all honesty, how good is a human driver in most of your scenarios? (hint: most aren't very good in ideal driving conditions.)

 

[dsvick]

Does AP2 have sufficient back-up power in case of system power loss? (A human can steer and stop a car when power is lost. And even if they can't avoid collision the human can mitigate the impact.)

I assume that if there is a complete loss of power, regardless of who is driving, it will be a lot like driving a brick underwater while towing a oil tanker.

 

[ecarfan]

What good is the hardware if you can't use it because of software lock and legality. When the legality rolls around the systems in cars might already be outdated or some higher standard might be required, don't get me wrong I'm happy they're including it but it's not as big of a consideration.

The same hardware is used for the EAP option and it is used for the standard AEB (Automatic Emergency Braking) and other emergency avoidance features that are present in every car (not an option).

 

[SureValla]

I'm not sure about glare (although I don't have a problem with my Model S screen), but I don't see how it being further away helps ergonomically. It seems to me you will look about the same place for the speed in either case (a bit to the right of the upper part of the steering wheel). Of course, it's really impossible to tell without sitting in one (or pictures that were taken from the same spot with the same focal length).

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Yeah, that's the point I've been trying to make. It's hard to make comparisons when the pictures are not taken from the same place and with the same zoom.

I also agree with your analysis of the pictures you can find: the position of the speedometer seems to be in the same place, even though on the z-axis the Prius has it further away. This might mean more refocusing for the Model 3, but in terms of eye/head movement there should be almost no difference.

I drive a Gen 2 Prius and one of those most different things about this car is how far away the speedometer is. It is basically in your line of vision so much so it almost acts as a HUD. I went out to my car and took some measurements and photos for you guys so you can appreciate how great this is.

The angle that you have to look down in the prius is half that of any other car that has it behind the steering wheel. Assuming the tesla screen is the same height as any other cars speedometer and to its right then you not only have to look further down than the prius but further over to the right.

I will also note the prius speedometer is a projection (similar to how its done in fighter jets) so direct sun doesn't have an effect and it is still readable.

 

[Foxhound199]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

I'm hoping this is what's going on. One thing I keep forgetting right now is that he's not trying to sell us on the car. If this speedometer business made me so mad that I cancelled my reservation and bought a car I know I like (the Model S), then that's a win for Musk. Right now, it serves his interests for us to believe the 3 is a slightly crappier, needlessly stripped down version of the S. When it actually comes time to convert reservations into orders, I have a feeling a rosier picture will emerge.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I drive a Gen 2 Prius and one of those most different things about this car is how far away the speedometer is. It is basically in your line of vision so much so it almost acts as a HUD. I went out to my car and took some measurements and photos for you guys so you can appreciate how great this is.

The angle that you have to look down in the prius is half that of any other car that has it behind the steering wheel. Assuming the tesla screen is the same height as any other cars speedometer and to its right then you not only have to look further down than the prius but further over to the right.

I will also note the prius speedometer is a projection (similar to how its done in fighter jets) so direct sun doesn't have an effect and it is still readable.

View attachment 220448
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I don't know what year yours is, but I believe the one shown by @gregincal is a 2013. The speedometer is further to the right than yours.

The Prius V is even further to the right.

Also it doesn't seem like there is a 20in difference in the depth. Looks like it is less than 1 feet.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I'm hoping this is what's going on. One thing I keep forgetting right now is that he's not trying to sell us on the car. If this speedometer business made me so mad that I cancelled my reservation and bought a car I know I like (the Model S), then that's a win for Musk. Right now, it serves his interests for us to believe the 3 is a slightly crappier, needlessly stripped down version of the S. When it actually comes time to convert reservations into orders, I have a feeling a rosier picture will emerge.

Exactly, he's done nothing but "neg" the Model 3 for weeks now.....but I have a sneaking suspicion we'll start getting more details starting around Close of Business on Friday....

Why? That's the end of Q1. Sales numbers will be wrapped up at that point.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Exactly, he's done nothing but "neg" the Model 3 for weeks now.....but I have a sneaking suspicion we'll start getting more details starting around Close of Business on Friday....

Why? That's the end of Q1. Sales numbers will be wrapped up at that point.

Perhaps not. His tweetstorm seemed to be about boosting Q2 numbers, for which orders are being made right now. See e.g. Model S 60... Talking Model 3 after Friday would not help Q2 numbers.

Unless they've had tons on people cancelling their Q1 deliveries to wait for Model 3, which I rather doubt, I think this is about Q2 numbers. I think it makes more sense that new orders are drying up for Q2 and beyond and those need to be re-invigorated...

News for Model S/X that can be shipped still within Q2 would of course be a good demand lever, so those may come after Friday, but Model 3... I don't see it. I don't think we will hear much about Model 3 until around Q3... (that June/July event perhaps).

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Perhaps not. His tweetstorm seemed to be about boosting Q2 numbers, for which orders are being made right now. See e.g. Model S 60... Talking Model 3 after Friday would not help Q2 numbers.

Unless they've had tons on people cancelling their Q1 deliveries to wait for Model 3, which I rather doubt, I think this is about Q2 numbers. I think it makes more sense that new orders are drying up for Q2 and beyond and those need to be re-invigorated...

News for Model S/X that can be shipped still within Q2 would of course be a good demand lever, so those may come after Friday, but Model 3... I don't see it. I don't think we will hear much about Model 3 until Q3... (that June/July event perhaps).

I think if not this weekend, we'll hear more once the S60 is officially re-rediscontinued. LOL

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@SureValla @stopcrazypp

To me it seems obvious the Model 3 speedometer screen corner is much closer than the Prius speedo, which I agree is actually quite ingeniously placed. Thank you @SureValla for the infos.

But Model 3 screen sits around the distance of the steering wheel base, which is far, far closer than the Prius speedo.

Again, I think the Model 3 speedo is more like if the Prius was showing the speed on its navigator map...

 

[stopcrazypp]

@SureValla @stopcrazypp

To me it seems obvious the Model 3 speedometer screen corner is much closer than the Prius speedo, which I agree is actually quite ingeniously placed. Thank you @SureValla for the infos.

But Model 3 screen sits around the distance of the steering wheel base, which is far, far closer than the Prius speedo.

Again, I think the Model 3 speedo is more like if the Prius was showing the speed on its navigator map...

I completely disagree with this. It is blatantly obvious that the speedometer on the Model 3 is much higher and to the left than the navigation screen on the Prius. I'm getting deja vu with the oldsmobile comparison I did elsewhere, where the person tried to use a reference point that is much lower and to the right (in their case it was AC/radio controls) to test how the Model 3 might work.

Model 3 Only 1 Screen Officially

 

[BluestarE3]

I drive a Gen 2 Prius and one of those most different things about this car is how far away the speedometer is. It is basically in your line of vision so much so it almost acts as a HUD.

Same on my Gen 1 Prius. Indeed, the speedometer display reflects off the base of the windshield at night, which I find annoying and distracting, so I have to dim the display. Unfortunately, this also dims all other instrumentation lighting, making them hard to read at night. I've never driven a car with a HUD, but if it's anything like this, I'd rather not have it at all.

However, as far as having the speedometer off to the side vs. behind the steering wheel, that hasn't been a problem in the past 16 years and it didn't take any time to adapt to it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@stopcrazypp

I meant the distance forwards. The Model 3 screen is much closer to driver than the Prius speedometer.

Speaking of height, other than being slightly more to the side and possibly a bit more forwards than Model 3 screen, the other Prius radio (?) screen shows this difference well. No way is the Model 3 speedo that far in the front as the speedo here... it is more akin to the radio screen, though the former is more to left of course and probably even closer in terms of distance ahead:

 

[tga]

People are missing one of the key advantages of a central instrument panel/ control screen...ease of manufacture between LHD and RHD markets. It vastly simplifies the production line.

I don't buy that for a second. Having 2 different dashboards in the parts bin pales in comparison to the cost/effort of moving the steering wheel.

To all those who are adamant that a speedometer/instrument panel behind wheel is unnecessary, have you driven a car without one? And not just a test drive, but for years? I have, and I still think it sucks.

 

[tga]

None of the millennials I know have much interest in driving or even in owning a car. They are the future. In 10 years most new cars will be sold with fully autonomous driving and buyers will welcome it, as will the auto insurance companies.

*sigh*

 

[eisbock]

You folks. You're so cutting edge that you are anxious to buy a battery car, but you can't conceive of your speedometer being "towards the right." I've used GPS's forever, and use my windshield mounted device's speedometer ABOVE MY EYE LINE, because it tells me what I want to know. Took nearly an hour to get used to it. And my steering wheel is never in my way now. And it tells me the speed limit too. And my distance to my next turn.

At least, as Krugerrand suggests: try it first before hating on it.

Honestly for me, it's not so much that the speedo is in a different place, but the fact that it's crammed into the corner of a screen that will control literally everything else on the car. This is lazy and incredibly inelegant. Important driver info like that should not be an afterthought.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I must admit that after such a practical and normal car as Model S, the weirdmobile risks Tesla has taken with Model X and even Model 3 (no instrument cluster, sacrificing hatchbackiness for glass roofs) seems so... unlike.

I think they are unnecessary risks compared to the mission. A normal BEV, nothing too odd, executed well, like Model S, would have been good enough.

There are already obstacles to adoption. Why add more?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Honestly for me, it's not so much that the speedo is in a different place, but the fact that it's crammed into the corner of a screen that will control literally everything else on the car. This is lazy and incredibly inelegant. Important driver info like that should not be an afterthought.

The software implementation, I'm sure, will still improve.

 

[BluestarE3]

To all those who are adamant that a speedometer/instrument panel behind wheel is unnecessary, have you driven a car without one? And not just a test drive, but for years? I have, and I still think it sucks.

I've been driving my Prius for 16 years and it hasn't ever bothered me to have no instrumentation behind the steering wheel. What has bothered me, though, is the glare from the high-mounted and setback speedo display that reflects off the base of the windshield at night, so I have to dim it. Hopefully, display reflection off the windshield will not be a problem on the Model 3 since its display is mounted closer to the driver. But, as far as having all the instrumentation off to the side, I don't foresee that as an issue. When I drive my wife's minivan, I have to adjust the steering wheel height so it doesn't block my view of the speedometer (and heaven help me if I forget to set it back). That's not necessary when the readout is off to the side.