Elon's Model 3 Deception

[calisnow]

I liked your comment. Where we diverge is Tesla is marketing the 3 (and I'm paraphrasing) as the "everyman's EV, one for the masses) etc. Part of the problem is a fair chunk of the masses don't actually like driving. They want an electric car that gets them from point A to B, yet has all this awesome self-driving tech they hear about every time Tesla is mentioned. They also want the most bang for their buck, and the intangible benefit you're describing doesn't get them to jump at what is now a roughly $50k car. Even if the 3 is a great car at $50k, this all still feels really disappointing when looking at it on paper.

With all due respect have you done the calculation on the value of your time over the life of the car, applied an hourly value to autopilot driving - and then compared that to the $5K you pay for autopilot? After you do that it looks like a helluva deal on paper.

Also let's be real - $35K + $5K for autopilot = $40K not $50K. Again - I own two fairly loaded Model S's + a bunch of luxury and sports cars. My point of the post was to say that electric drive + autopilot renders other types of "luxury" totally irrelevant (power seats, leather, etc.). The smooth silence of electric motors plus the have-to-experience-it-to-believe-it-fatigue-reduction of autopilot render everything else obsolete. Add in 100+ mpge with almost zero maintenance and the car is an incredible bargain on paper.

The 9-5 worker bee crowd that has been waiting years for this car is just too ignorant to realize it's a bargain (at least, the few who are here b*tching and moaning) - but they'll understand soon enough.

Those of us who own autopilot V1 and V2 know it takes 90% of the effort out of highway commuting. People who have never experienced it are incapable of understanding it. I didn't either before it became a reality for me. This car will blow up virally more than it has already after it gets into the hands of Joe Blow and his buddies get to drive it at the Sunday BBQ. My own girlfriend was in the "autopilot is stupid" camp - after a couple months she gets quite annoyed driving anything she has to steer herself down the freeway. Same for my 72 year old mom.

500,000 reservations ain't nuthin' - the worker bees will buy it by the millions.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

$9000 is the cost of the Long Range battery upgrade, and the cost has nothing to do with initial production run or premium package. Tesla did say that the initial prod run would be long range versions with premium package, so if you have an early reservation adding those options puts you at the head of the queue.



Tesla did post options packages and pricing last night, which was copied verbatim in the Eletrek article. See Press Kit | Tesla . I do agree 100% that Tesla did a TERRIBLE job last night in providing detailed info to reservation holders. The press kit info (or at least a link) should have been part of Elon's presentation.

I just realized I messed up on my math... The initial production cars with larger battery are 49k, so a 14k premium... Later they will be 44k... which is a 9k premium. See my other thread with photo from launch party and photo from my reservation page

 

[zenmaster]

I just realized I messed up on my math... The initial production cars with larger battery are 49k, so a 13k premium... Later they will be 44k... which is a 9k premium. See my other thread with photo from launch party and photo from my reservation page

I think you need to check your math again.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

While I'm all for BEVs taking over the world - and rooting for the sustainability aspect - I think there is a bit of hyperbole and refusal to understand differing priorities in your post. It is definitely not just about people not understanding how lucky they are. That is the view of someone who needs and wants a BEV. Indeed, for that person this is a lucky time.

But not all people are that person, nor do they need to be. Other people have other priorities, other desires - that doesn't automatically make them ignorant, entitled or not knowing how lucky they are or anything of the sort. Surprise, surprise, different people actually care about different stuff - and that's OK...

Interesting anecdote: I was gushing something similar when I joined the Tesla community and TMC back in 2014 ("Car market literally down to 2 cars today"). I'm on my second Tesla these days. In recent times I've actually been driving more ICE than BEV. Go figure. The novelty certainly can wear off. Don't get me wrong, my Tesla is a great car, but in the end it is still just a car, not end all be all... for me. Others have other experiences and that's the way it goes.

You've definitely changed your tune since that old Post...

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

I think you need to check your math again.

Very little sleep, thank you for the help

 

[MeTooFull]

I think there is a bit of hyperbole and refusal to understand differing priorities in your post.....

......In recent times I've actually been driving more ICE than BEV.

That's why I said everyone choose their own poison. My is easy transportation and ahead of the curve technology. Actually I take Lyft and Uber much more than driving myself.

But once in a blue moon I actually like to drive an old stick shift like an old Porsche for fun. Been eyeing one of these Singer Vehicle Design | Restored. Reimagined. Reborn

 

[calisnow]

The ultimate luxury for you may be electric drive. The trick is to realize, this does not apply to all people. It might not even apply to most people. And I guarantee you, for some people the ultimate luxury is that Rolls or a Maybach, not its drivetrain.

As the owner of a Bentley I'm not "most" Rolls or Maybach customers but I can tell you this - all the British leather, rich wood and sound insulation in the world does not make up for a lack of self steering and the smooth silence and responsiveness of electric drive - at least for me.

NOW - put an electric drivetrain AND autopilot in a Mulsanne and yes, I'd love to get my Connolly hide smell, acres of wood and increased sound insulation back. Yes, absolutely. That day will come but it is not here yet. And as for this moment in time the luxury of autopilot and electric drive far outweigh the rest of the "package" offered by Rolls/Bentley/Benz/Audi luxobarges (at least to me). Plus who knows - my aesthetic visual tastes may have changed so far to the minimalist after years of being in a Tesla that I'll never go back to Bentley.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

Tesla often issues 'forward-looking', aka wildly optimistic, information about their goals.

OK, sometimes they come up short (cough 762hp cough), but they also stun the holy crap out of you sometimes. 10.x quarter mile ET's in a 4 door family car that is 'green' technology. AutoPilot. OTA updates and upgrades. And of course, the 120 kW SuperCharger network.

Many of Tesla's achievements were seen as impossible by educated automotive journalists. But they happened.

What did I see last night?

1) Tesla is not ready for mass production. Information was limited as to exact feature list, pricing, no EPA official data, no crash data, etc.
2) Tesla is ready to make Model 3's for retail customers very soon.
3) The Model 3 will have >300 miles of range.
4) There are still plans for a $35k version (this is something I thought they would have to drop).
5) Elon still struggles with public speaking. I doubt that will change, and shame on the aholes who are ragging on him about it.
6) The Model 310 is going to be a bargain.
7) 'Forward-looking'...

Exactly the sentiment I came away with, Model 3 is not quite ready but I'm glad they are not delaying it like the X due to this fact

 

[shrspeedblade]

A lot of this is simply a function of time. The longer one has to anticipate something inevitably the higher the expectations go.

If without warning Tesla had dumped the Model 3 220 on the market yesterday many people would hardly believe it was possible.

 

[calisnow]

I'm not even sure preference is the right word here, sometimes we are just being driven by different priorities and emotions. I won't waste space here discussing subjective details, which are irrelevant. Sometimes I need to take an ICE, but other times an ICE has something that I feel like driving that day.

I think the wider lesson is not to apply our own priorities and emotions to other people, as they may genuinely differ - they are not ignorant or wrong, those people, they may just genuinely value very different things than we, and even then again value different things at other stages in their life...

I have seen and indeed personally felt many a people being bitten by the BEV bug and chanting the never ICE mantra, yet some of those people - myself included - actually do return to ICE or PHEV or somesuch in some capacity after the hubris wears off. And probably even a larger group of people don't see this as either-or from the get go at all, they never are or will be bitten by that BEV bug in the first place. Then again, all of these people might still be potential BEV users in the future, just genuinely don't care about many of the things we here might feel are strong points of BEVs, but could still find a BEV a suitable solution if their individual needs are met, whatever they may be...

The point is: people genuinely are different, they have different priorities and emotions. They are not automatically ignorant or having the wrong priorities if they are not gushing about the exact same things as we are.

Model 3's 0-60 is being quoted here a lot. No doubt it is a strong point. Yet often these comments completely ignore the fact that the number is meaningless to a lot of buyers.

Oh come on dude just answer the question 'cause I'm curious - what ICE?

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

I'm not even sure preference is the right word here, sometimes we are just being driven by different priorities and emotions. I won't waste space here discussing subjective details, which are irrelevant. Sometimes I need to take an ICE, but other times an ICE has something that I feel like driving that day.

I think the wider lesson is not to apply our own priorities and emotions to other people, as they may genuinely differ - they are not ignorant or wrong, those people, they may just genuinely value very different things than we, and even then again value different things at other stages in their life...

I have seen and indeed personally felt many a people being bitten by the BEV bug and chanting the never ICE mantra, yet some of those people - myself included - actually do return to ICE or PHEV or somesuch in some capacity after the hubris wears off. And probably even a larger group of people don't see this as either-or from the get go at all, they never are or will be bitten by that BEV bug in the first place. Then again, all of these people might still be potential BEV users in the future, just genuinely don't care about many of the things we here might feel are strong points of BEVs, but could still find a BEV a suitable solution if their individual needs are met, whatever they may be...

The point is: people genuinely are different, they have different priorities and emotions. They are not automatically ignorant or having the wrong priorities if they are not gushing about the exact same things as we are.

Model 3's 0-60 is being quoted here a lot. No doubt it is a strong point. Yet often these comments completely ignore the fact that the number is meaningless to a lot of buyers.

But what ICE are you driving?

 

[brucet999]

"Everyone took this to mean"

You've been busy. Ferreting out ~ 500k people is no mean feat. How did you miss me ?
Oh, and by the way, the Model 3 highway range IS longer than the Bolt on EPA and therefore much longer at normative US driving speeds. Where it matters. But now I return you to your rant, and please accept my apologies for any facts that confuse you.

Can you post a link to the source? I can't seem to find anything about Model 3 EPA results other than Tesla's claims.

 

[gowthamn]

I'm a big Elon Musk fan. I even hugged him once in a bar.

But he has said things about the Model 3 that have been deceptive, given last night's event. Let's list some of them. Please contribute if you know of others!

• Model 3 reveal part 2, which is going to be closer to production, will take things to another level:
  • No it didn't. There wasn't anything new. Nothing about Supercharger V3, new EAP capabilities, etc.
• The controls are like a spaceship
  • Not much different than a Model S, except maybe smoother and different interface
• "Oh so little faith" in regards to Model 3 having more range than Bolt
  • Everyone took this to mean at a similar price, the Model 3 would have similar or better range than a Bolt, but it doesn't. The Model S already has better range than a Bolt, but it's more expensive. This is also the case for the Model 3.
• Even a base car at $35,000 will be better than any comparable car in its class
  • Questionable. Sure, the driving dynamics and minimalist design seems amazing. But at 35k, you don't get fog lights, covered center console, ACC?, no leather, basic sound system, no special phone chargers..... a lot of little features missing from other 35k cars.

It is a well known fact that elon hypes a lot. One should NOT take what he says literally.

 

[182RG]

The 9-5 worker bee crowd that has been waiting years for this car is just too ignorant to realize it's a bargain (at least, the few who are here b*tching and moaning) - but they'll understand soon enough.

Condescend much, Mr. 2 Teslas and Sports Cars? People like you are the ones who give Tesla owners the rich d-bag image.

 

[calisnow]

Condescend much, Mr. 2 Teslas and Sports Cars? People like you are the ones who give Tesla owners the rich d-bag image.

You never come around just to say hi - only to insult and argue. Gettin' crotchety much?

 

[calisnow]

Condescend much, Mr. 2 Teslas and Sports Cars? People like you are the ones who give Tesla owners the rich d-bag image.

I can't actually think of one decent thing you've ever said to me @182RG - you just rag on me. I've returned most all of your comments with good humor but you never change your tune.

 

[Waiting4M3]

But one wouldn't compare the 330i with the 49k Model 3. The comparison would obviously be with something like the $48k 340i (Home - BMW North America) with the $49K Model 3.

The last 3 series I owned was a $53k 2013 Activehybrid 3 MSport, 0-60 5s, 155mph limit, HUD, bird's eyeview + sideview cameras, Harman Kardon Logic 7 stereo w/ 16 speakers, HD Radio, "comfort access" keyless, Satellite radio, leather, heated seats, 19" M wheels awhile back. At the time, the non-hybrid 335i was perhaps $4k cheaper for all those same features. I am wondering if Tesla would offer those features in a Model 3 for the same price or even at all?

0-60 5s, M3 long range does 5.1 0-60
155mph limit, 140mph for M3 long range model, you'll have to live with it
HUD, not going there
bird's eyeview + sideview cameras, M3 offers 8 cameras plus sonar, radar, has emergency automatic breaking and collision avoidance as standard
Harman Kardon Logic 7 stereo w/ 16 speakers, M3 offers Premium audio system with more power, tweeters, surround speakers and subwoofer under premium package
HD Radio, not sure
"comfort access" keyless, M3 offers phone BT auto unlock, and keycard for valet as standard
Satellite radio , no
leather, M3 yes under premium package
heated seats, M3 yes on all seats under premium package
19" M wheels, M3 yes $1500 upgrade

The above M3 will cost you $50.5K ($35 + $9K battery + $5K premium package + $1.5K 19" wheel)

The 2017 340i starts at $47.9K, plus $950 for parking assist, $1700 for driving assist (similar to collision avoidance), $800 for LED lights, $2750 for tech package that includes Nav, internet and remote services, you're looking at $54K

 

[calisnow]

Condescend much, Mr. 2 Teslas and Sports Cars? People like you are the ones who give Tesla owners the rich d-bag image.

I make no apologies for being materially blessed in life - as many of us are on these forums. It's really awesome - you must not be doing badly yourself. But I mention these things (2 Teslas and the sports cars) only in two contexts:

1 - To demonstrate that I have some perspective when I compare AP1 vs AP2 - vs many who construct long winded analyses from Youtube videos. There are not that many people here who own both versions simultaneously and provide comparative experience. I think it's useful. Sorry if you don't.

2 - As for the sports cars I really really love cars. Again no apology. But again, I bring them up only to make a strong point - that Tesla has changed the game so much that it's really changed what luxury and desirability mean. 5 years ago you'd have never made me believe I'd love an unknown electric more than my previous - beloveds.

And frankly - most people who know me in real life have no idea I own these cars - I'm open and free on the internet because my identity is hidden. In the "real world" many of my friends and certainly my employees and customers - do not know about this fleet because I don't let myself be seen in them in most contexts.

 

[electracity]

A lot of this is simply a function of time. The longer one has to anticipate something inevitably the higher the expectations go.

If without warning Tesla had dumped the Model 3 220 on the market yesterday many people would hardly believe it was possible.

Yes. Two years ago I believed the model 3 would have to be a exotic/wierdmobile type car to make the price point. What was actually delivered is much nicer.

But the only surprise for me since the reveal is the 310 range option and the low weight of the car. The pricing of options should have been obvious.

Self deception is a better title for a thread.

Check out some of the Model 3 interior features in this video:

 

[skitown]

The ultimate luxury for you may be electric drive. The trick is to realize, this does not apply to all people. It might not even apply to most people. And I guarantee you, for some people the ultimate luxury is that Rolls or a Maybach, not its drivetrain.

That doesn't mean BEV can't be a great and the future solution for most or all people, but it may be that for completely different reasons than you in particular think.

@AnxietyRanger since you have a Tesla and enjoy driving your ICE cars, I quite respect your opinion on this matter. To each his own. For me, my 85D is far, far superior to any ICE car you could give me. Scout's honor. You could literally give me a $250K supercar and I would never drive it. I wouldn't even want it in my garage. Me? I worked at a BMW shop in college. I've had a couple of them, a Mustang Cobra, a WRX and two Honda Civic Sis. Am I dating myself? I think that ICE cars sound and drive totally desperate now. "I love the sound of desperation in the morning", I say sarcastically. They remind me of an out of shape cyclist wheezing and getting dropped by someone far more fit. Don't get me wrong, I recognize real beauty in other vehicle designs and materials, but make me prioritize what's most important and I'll choose the driving dynamics of a BEV like my Tesla every time. The drivetrain is king for me. In the past year since I've had my car, I've had five, german-car loving friends drive my Model S. Two of the five now have their own. One guy has literally only owned BMWs for 3 decades. And we live 7 hours away from the closest service center! So, while I respect your opinion, I genuinely believe that most people who "don't get it", simply haven't experienced "it" yet. And they are about to experience it in a big way.