Enhanced Summon coming (Elon tweet 6 Apr, 2019)

[woodisgood]

I think the issue being ignored here is that in order to navigate a parking lot safely, the FSD problem needs to be solved. Parking lots have all of the problems that driving on roads have, with the added chaos of fewer people obeying the "rules of the road", there are no traffic control devices, and the pedestrian-to-vehicle ratio is extremely high.

In other words, if you can make a car drive safely and similar to a person in a parking lot, then you've in effect solved self driving. So either Tesla plans on releasing a half-baked, likely dangerous product to the wild, or they're going to find reason after reason why releasing this is a bad idea. My bet is on the latter, if the legal department has any say whatsoever.

Well said.

 

[DrDabbles]

So why is the blatant false advertising still active on the Tesla ordering site, then? "Really" it's still there....

It's not false advertising, it's describing the features considered part of "Full Self-Driving Capability". I'll agree that the arbitrary breakout of features and descriptions are nonsensical, but false advertising has an actual legal definition and this doesn't meet it.

 

[jebinc]

It's not false advertising, it's describing the features considered part of "Full Self-Driving Capability". I'll agree that the arbitrary breakout of features and descriptions are nonsensical, but false advertising has an actual legal definition and this doesn't meet it.

My question was a serious one, to all those that believe Musk isn't a liar/Charlatan.

It's true you can't schedule an invention, and software development has it's challenges and delays - no issues there. Given the repeated delays on Enhanced Summon/FSD, what would the logical reason be for Tesla not wanting to update this FSD "Really" ordering screen - to may it more clear/accurate, rather than misleading at best? If it is not Tesla's intention to mislead/misrepresent, and suck the less informed in, what then? It must be "intentional," no?

 

[notAnExpert]

It's not false advertising, it's describing the features considered part of "Full Self-Driving Capability". I'll agree that the arbitrary breakout of features and descriptions are nonsensical, but false advertising has an actual legal definition and this doesn't meet it.

I'm not a legal expert. What is an appropriate legal term when a company tells its potential customer on the order page that a feature exists when it actually doesn't?

 

[jebinc]

I'm not a legal expert. What is an appropriate legal term when a company tells its potential customer on the order page that a feature exists when it actually doesn't?

"Misrepresentation" in the "legal term" you're looking for, I believe - And watch all of the crazed "zealots" and fanbois jump in, in record time, to defend Musk and Tesla's actions on this one point (i.e., nonsensical posts, "Disagree" tags, etc...).. For the record, I love my M3 and purchased FSD, so there's that...

Misrepresentation Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

"Misrepresentation refers to a statement made by a party to a contract that induces another to enter into a contract, which can be interpreted, as false or untrue. The misrepresentation must be both false and fraudulent, in order to make the party making it liable for damages.

Restatement (Second) of Torts § 552 defines a negligent misrepresentation as:

"One who, in the course of his business, profession or employment, or in any transaction in which he has a pecuniary interest, supplies false information for the guidance of others in their business transactions, is subject to liability for pecuniary loss caused to them by their justifiable reliance upon the information, if he fails to exercise reasonable care or competence in obtaining or communicating the information."

 

[Dan203]

I think the issue being ignored here is that in order to navigate a parking lot safely, the FSD problem needs to be solved. Parking lots have all of the problems that driving on roads have, with the added chaos of fewer people obeying the "rules of the road", there are no traffic control devices, and the pedestrian-to-vehicle ratio is extremely high.

In other words, if you can make a car drive safely and similar to a person in a parking lot, then you've in effect solved self driving. So either Tesla plans on releasing a half-baked, likely dangerous product to the wild, or they're going to find reason after reason why releasing this is a bad idea. My bet is on the latter, if the legal department has any say whatsoever.

Not quite. Parking lots are low speed, so emergency braking can be virtually instant. Plus, as you said, there are usually no traffic control devices which means they don't need to read signs, lights, etc...

In other aspects it's worse. There are rarely obvious lines yo delineate lanes or even driving surfaces. A lot of them have low curbs and those little parking blocks that might be invisible to the cars sonic sensors. And as you pointed out there are a lot of pedestrians just walking aimlessly with no real regard for the "rules of the road".

Your point is solid though. This problem requires most of the same problem solving capabilities as self driving on the road, so I'm not sure why they're advertising this as being available any day now while saying full self driving is years away.

 

[notAnExpert]

... In other words, if you can make a car drive safely and similar to a person in a parking lot, then you've in effect solved self driving...

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

 

[Knightshade]

I think the issue being ignored here is that in order to navigate a parking lot safely, the FSD problem needs to be solved. Parking lots have all of the problems that driving on roads have, with the added chaos of fewer people obeying the "rules of the road", there are no traffic control devices, and the pedestrian-to-vehicle ratio is extremely high.

In other words, if you can make a car drive safely and similar to a person in a parking lot, then you've in effect solved self driving. So either Tesla plans on releasing a half-baked, likely dangerous product to the wild, or they're going to find reason after reason why releasing this is a bad idea. My bet is on the latter, if the legal department has any say whatsoever.

I don't think that "pulls out of parking spot and moves up to 150 feet away to set point, at like 5 mph, without hitting anything" is anywhere near the same problem or level of difficulty as FSD on public roads at highways speeds needing to read and recognize a slew of signs, markings, and mutli-lanes of traffic and intersections.

 

[woodisgood]

I don't think that "pulls out of parking spot and moves up to 150 feet away to set point, at like 5 mph, without hitting anything" is anywhere near the same problem or level of difficulty as FSD on public roads at highways speeds needing to read and recognize a slew of signs, markings, and mutli-lanes of traffic and intersections.

I think a better way of saying what some of us are getting at is that a lot of the edge cases that make FSD seem insurmountable are actually found in a parking lot, but with lower speeds and [possibly] less legal exposure for Tesla. It's not hard to foresee Tesla going from its highway AP functionality to doing the same thing on city streets with lights and stop signs. It's harder to see how they will handle certain edge cases, many of which rely on human communication and a bit of improvisation. Tesla is good at laying down the rules for the car to follow, i.e. what's my drivable space?" but the harder part of what they need to program is some judgment. I see absolutely no reason why FSD won't be able to easily handle a red light on a 45 mph road a few months from now, or even a left turn at a stop sign on an uncrowded, unmarked residential road. But I also see absolutely no way the car will be able to drive in downtown San Francisco without major problems even two years from now.

Meaning things like: Negotiating with other drivers at low speed, similar to what you might do at a 4 way stop. Navigating unexpected obstructions like construction instead of just aborting, double parked vehicles requiring you to venture into the oncoming lane, pedestrians that cross in the middle of the road, bicycles that weave unpredictably in and out of bike lanes, etc. I don't even live in downtown but a 10 block radius within my house is edge case after edge case every single drive.

 

[lukex4]

4-8 weeks now...

 

[run-the-joules]

4-8 weeks now...

Calling it now: February.

 

[notAnExpert]

4-8 weeks now...

He can’t even raise prices on time.

 

[RobDickinson]

Calling it now: February.

Which February?

 

[jebinc]

4-8 weeks now...

At least the BS of "Hopefully August" has come to a close (before the end of August); and that like some of us (but not all) expected, no price increase until something real is released... Duh... Lastly, did anyone else notice the subtle "rebranding" of Enhanced Summon to "Smart" summon? Sounds like a downgrade to me...

Edit: So, does anyone think Tesla will fix this next?

Enhance summon coming next week!​

 

[woodisgood]

I’m in Camp 2020 as well. We’ll all be clamoring for a holiday present but it probably scoots into next year.

Except for those with early access of course.

 

[run-the-joules]

I’m in Camp 2020 as well. We’ll all be clamoring for a holiday present but it probably scoots into next year.

Except for those with early access of course.

…which of course all of us who paid for FSD before the "lol, F.U. early adopters" sale of a few months ago are supposed to be…

 

[woodisgood]

…which of course all of us who paid for FSD before the "lol, F.U. early adopters" sale of a few months ago are supposed to be…

I thought you might have gotten an invite by now as you’d been somewhat quiet on the issue of late.

Promises aside, I’d imagine they don’t need many more early access folks in the Bay Area. If you lived in Alabama maybe you’d have EA by now.

 

[run-the-joules]

I thought you might have gotten an invite by now as you’d been somewhat quiet on the issue of late.

Nah, just been busy.

Promises aside, I’d imagine they don’t need many more early access folks in the Bay Area. If you lived in Alabama maybe you’d have EA by now.

Oh yes. I've long given up hope of actually getting invited. The funny thing is that the lie actually cost them money, because it's what pushed me over the edge and made me decide not to order a Model Y until they're actually in production and I can pick one up during End Of Quarter Madness® for a few thousand bucks off the listed price.

After all, if they can't deliver on a simple promise, why would I throw more money at them to break larger ones?

 

[Dan203]

I just can’t see how Tesla can continue to sell this for $6,000 when they are so far away from having anything close to "full self driving". If they really need that money for R&D why not just charge more for the car and include FSD standard so that everyone is using it and teaching the network?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I just can’t see how Tesla can continue to sell this for $6,000 when they are so far away from having anything close to "full self driving". If they really need that money for R&D why not just charge more for the car and include FSD standard so that everyone is using it and teaching the network?

In Tesla's defense actual "full self driving" would sell for WAY more than $6k. There's a reason there are a bunch of estimates of Waymo's value being in the hundreds of billions of dollars (and they don't even have FSD yet!). If Tesla could raise the price of the car and still sell just as many they would surely do so...