EU Model 3: AC charging speed?

[Meulebeest]

Hi,

A bit of confusion on this topic, and some correct answers.
The max charge speed is indeed +/- 11kw at this moment (software limited ?) for AC charge.
So 16A * 3 * 380V is max > charge speeds of 69km/h.

Some tests:
>

Upped the max kw on the charger (but no improvement):

>

As now stated on the Tesla website (Dutch/BE):
Oplaadinstallatie voor thuis

Config: 32A * (3L_N) * 380~V (home) > Mennekes 22kw capable charger > Tesla Model 3 AWD LR Performance
Note the Voltage difference between L1>L2>L3 is ~240V, the diff L1>N is ~380V.

Have fun.

 

[eprosenx]

Hi,

A bit of confusion on this topic, and some correct answers.
The max charge speed is indeed +/- 11kw at this moment (software limited ?) for AC charge.
So 16A * 3 * 380V is max > charge speeds of 69km/h.

Some tests:
View attachment 387633 > View attachment 387634

Upped the max kw on the charger (but no improvement):

View attachment 387635 > View attachment 387636

As now stated on the Tesla website (Dutch/BE):
Oplaadinstallatie voor thuis

Config: 32A * (3L_N) * 380~V (home) > Mennekes 22kw capable charger > Tesla Model 3 AWD LR Performance
Note the Voltage difference between L1>L2>L3 is ~240V, the diff L1>N is ~380V.

Have fun.

I think you mean mains voltage is 230v / 400v nominal.

L1-L2 or L2-L3 or L3-L1 should all be 400v nominal.

Any line to neutral should be 230v nominal.

I think it is clear that the M3 has three 16a capable chargers and they are hooked from line to neutral which results in each one getting about 230v. That gives you 48a * 230v or roughly 11kW.

Thanks for the European info!

 

[miimura]

It's a little weird to me that the app does not have a 3-phase indicator. If you plugged into a 16A single phase EVSE, would the app look any different besides the km/h?

 

[widodh]

I think you mean mains voltage is 230v / 400v nominal.

L1-L2 or L2-L3 or L3-L1 should all be 400v nominal.

Any line to neutral should be 230v nominal.

I think it is clear that the M3 has three 16a capable chargers and they are hooked from line to neutral which results in each one getting about 230v. That gives you 48a * 230v or roughly 11kW.

Thanks for the European info!

My Model S has the same configuration. The three chargers can each draw 24A per phase, so a total of 72A.

Some Model S have the limit of 3x16A (48A) just like Model 3.

My thinking is that in the US they connect all three chargers to Phase and Neutral resulting in 48A or 72A charging speeds.

In Europe they spread out the three chargers over the 3 phases.

 

[miimura]

My thinking is that in the US they connect all three chargers to Phase and Neutral resulting in 48A or 72A charging speeds.

Technically, in North America the two AC pins on the charge port can be either Neutral - Phase or Phase - Phase because we have split-phase 120/240V power. The connection is determined by the EVSE and available circuit configuration. However, you are correct, all sub-chargers inside are connected in parallel instead of being independently wired to the charge port.

 

[eprosenx]

It's a little weird to me that the app does not have a 3-phase indicator. If you plugged into a 16A single phase EVSE, would the app look any different besides the km/h?

Yeah, I would want the car to display the voltage separately for each of the three phase to neutral connections. This could be critical for certain troubleshooting situations. Not sure how to display total amps. I guess you could display all three or add them together (though that is imprecise since each phase leg could be at a different voltage).

There are some European chargers that are only single phase though right? So presumably the Tesla has a way to parallel some of the chargers to deal with that situation to get max charge rate still?

 

[miimura]

Yeah, I would want the car to display the voltage separately for each of the three phase to neutral connections. This could be critical for certain troubleshooting situations. Not sure how to display total amps. I guess you could display all three or add them together (though that is imprecise since each phase leg could be at a different voltage).

There are some European chargers that are only single phase though right? So presumably the Tesla has a way to parallel some of the chargers to deal with that situation to get max charge rate still?

Someone will have to verify what the European Model 3 does on a 32A single phase EVSE. The standard way to wire a single phase Type-2 charging station is to connect the Ground, Neutral and L1 pins, leaving L2 and L3 open. The Tesla Mobile Connector used to parallel the L1 power to all three power pins on the vehicle plug. Charging with more than 16A single phase with public stations used to be a problem in EU/UK back in the days of Model S single/dual chargers. Hopefully the Model 3 has internal switching to handle that properly.

 

[Arvoreen]

On a single phase it does it does 32A on 3 phase it does 3x16A

Tried with my 3x32A emonevse (openevse) and for the single phase test switched off the phase 2 & 3. On the center screen you see a (3), when charging 3phase.

 

[Arvoreen]

3 phase pics were horrible. Second try.

 

[Big Earl]

On a single phase it does it does 32A on 3 phase it does 3x16A

Tried with my 3x32A emonevse (openevse) and for the single phase test switched off the phase 2 & 3. On the center screen you see a (3), when charging 3phase.

The big question: will it do 48 amps on single phase?

 

[miimura]

The big question: will it do 48 amps on single phase?

The European Tesla Wall Connector only supports up to 32 amps, regardless of single phase or 3-phase connection. I have never seen a European single phase EVSE that supports more than 32 amps.

 

[eprosenx]

The European Tesla Wall Connector only supports up to 32 amps, regardless of single phase or 3-phase connection. I have never seen a European single phase EVSE that supports more than 32 amps.

I wonder if 32a is the max supported by the connector?

 

[miimura]

I wonder if 32a is the max supported by the connector?

The pins can clearly take it because the charge port on the S & X can take 350A from a Supercharger across 4 pins, but the cable on the EVSE could be a limitation. Obviously, the upper pins on the 3 could be different because it has CCS and all the high current passes through the lower pins.

 

[Rocky_H]

I wonder if 32a is the max supported by the connector?

but the cable on the EVSE could be a limitation.

That is an interesting thought. On the North American wall connector cables, they only need to have two wires for the charging voltage/current, because they are only ever one phase.
On the European ones, in their cables, they would need to have at least one extra wire to send the three phases in.

So I wonder if they do that tradeoff of an extra wire, so they make them all a little thinner (less current) to keep the overall cable sheath thickness from being too big.

 

[MP3Mike]

On the European ones, in their cables, they would need to have at least one extra wire to send the three phases in.

Don't you need at least 2 additional wires? You need three phase wires and a neutral. For NA you just need two wires which is either H-N or H-H.

 

[miimura]

North American charge ports require 5 wires (2 carrying power, Ground, Control Pilot, Proximity Pilot) whether they are J1772 or Tesla. European charge ports require 7 (L1/L2/L3, Neutral, Ground, CP, PP)

J1772 (Type-1), Tesla North America, Euro Type-2

(image from Wikipedia)

Obviously, a cable that is only carrying single phase power to a Type-2 plug doesn't have to have the extra 2 wires.

 

[Rocky_H]

Don't you need at least 2 additional wires? You need three phase wires and a neutral. For NA you just need two wires which is either H-N or H-H.

they would need to have at least one extra wire

That's why I did say "at least". I knew it would need the extra phase--I couldn't remember if three phases needed to use a neutral as well.

 

[eprosenx]

That's why I did say "at least". I knew it would need the extra phase--I couldn't remember if three phases needed to use a neutral as well.

Yeah, it would not need the neutral (as the chargers could be connected line to line) except that in Europe this would result in 400v which is beyond the specs of the charger modules. So by providing the neutral they can operate each at 230v.

Clearly there are three 16a charger modules in an M3. Each hooked line to neutral on a different phase in Europe for three phase charging. Then for single phase charging somehow two are hooked line to neutral in parallel. The question we are trying to answer here is if the Tesla could also parallel in that third module to get 48a of charging rate if there was a single phase charging station that supported 48a on a single phase.

I am now curious what the European configuration of the mid range and short range looks like? Do they just have two charger modules and on a 3 phase charging setup they don't use the third leg (resulting in imbalanced usage?). Or do they have three modules still but that are either software or hardware limited to 10.6 amps each? (I have not gone to look at the specs on Tesla's site for European versions...)

 

[LuckyLuke]

On a single phase it does it does 32A
Tried with my 3x32A emonevse (openevse) and for the single phase test switched off the phase 2 & 3. .

Good experiment! (Y)
Wow, so the car can detect when its feeded 1x32A and divert that over 2 or 3 internal charger circuits? Afaik the (EU) S/X could not do that, or could they?
How did you switch off phase 2&3, a hardware switch?
The charging speed in kmh looks a bit low though at 1x32A only 28kmh, or is that just the timing when photo was taken?

 

[sjokomelk]

Good experiment! (Y)
Wow, so the car can detect when its feeded 1x32A and divert that over 2 or 3 internal charger circuits? Afaik the (EU) S/X could not do that, or could they?

Model S and X for EU supports 1x32A. There is a relay/switch in the car that changes the connection between the charger modules from a wye connection to a parallel connection.