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So the Model Y will replace the 3 as Tesla's "bread and butter" car? Is it really expected to have significantly higher margins and higher production volume than the Model 3? It wouldn't seem to make sense that a crossover would sell more than a sedan. Where are you guys getting these Model Y expected sales numbers from?
My feeling is that people mistake the growth in sales for Crossovers/SUVs as 'replacements' for Sedans. No. If you look at sales charts from a decade ago, the Crossovers/SUVs are actually replacing minivans in terms of popularity -- the top selling Sedans are still right where they were ten years ago among passenger cars. I believe that the Model Y has a good chance of outselling the Model ☰, but that is due to research I've done among premium brands that shows that often the best selling Crossover/SUV in a product line outsells the best selling Sedan from the same marque. The best example of this is probably the Lexus RX, which outsells every other Lexus by a wide, wide margin -- and has become the best selling premium vehicle in the U.S. as a result. Another is the AUDI Q7, or Porsche Macan, for those brands. Though, at BMW the 3-Series has been its best seller rather consistently -- at least until the unveiling of Tesla Model ☰. Among 'regular' brands, I would not be surprised if the Toyota RAV4 overtakes the Camry and the CR-V surpasses the Accord for good during 2017, though. I do not believe the Model Y will take sales away from Model ☰, it will just add a lot more to Tesla's overall bottom line.
 
SUVs are a bigger market share, but with tax credits gone at that point and brands like volvo, audi and jaguar making a push into electric vehicles (with a tax credit) over the next 2 years, I don't think tesla's demand for the Y will increase, unless they have something big up their sleeves.
Wait... Hunh? What?!? Dude, when was the last time that Volvo, AUDI, and Jaguar were a sales threat to... anyone? The Federal EV Tax Credits offered for the very few electric vehicles those companies offer will be just enough to keep those companies from closing their doors for good. None of them will be particularly affordable, and they stand no hope of becoming sales leaders in their market segment.

Assuming they are released in a timely fashion at all, none of those companies will make a dedicated effort toward selling them in large numbers. Every AUDI e-tron product has been repeatedly delayed, or canceled to be replaced by another concept car that is repeatedly delayed -- and those are plug-in hybrids that are woefully inadequate even when they are released. Jaguar as a brand only outsold the Tesla Model S by about 2,000 units, while Jaguar as a whole was outsold by Tesla by 16,000 units in the U.S. in 2016. At 82,724 units sold, 2016 was the best U.S. sales year for Volvo since 2007 -- the last time they crossed 100,000 units -- and only the third time since then that they cleared 70,000 units. Typically, all of Volvo is outsold by the BMW 3-Series alone, and Tesla will be offering the Model ☰ at Production rates to rival that by next year, while planning to surpass that with Model Y.

The Model Y won't need tax credits to be compelling. Neither will the Model ☰. Because Tesla will design their vehicles to be the best available, not just the best electric cars. Elon Musk that Tesla cannot get away with their cars just being 'a little bit better' because then no one would have a reason to buy them. They have to be a LOT better -- than all of the other cars -- to compel a purchase.

Look at it this way... General Motors offers the Chevrolet BOLT for more money than the Cadillac ATS, Chevrolet MALIBU, and Buick LaCrosse. Is the BOLT a better car than any of those? No. It isn't. That's why the BOLT is outsold by the ATS, MALIBU, and LaCrosse. And if new electric vehicles from AUDI, Jaguar, and Volvo are not better than their own ICE vehicles, then they have no hope of being better than Tesla's cars. Meanwhile, all Tesla has to do is design a Model Y that is obviously better than a Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Nissan Rogue, or Ford Escape -- for about the same money. That should be easy.
 
I see 300 cars of those brands on the road for every tesla i see in my area -- granted those companies have been around a lot longer. I'm not crowning any of them the leader in EVs -- Tesla clearly has a firm hold on that position, but I think its naive to think that their collective move towards producing EVs won't take a bite out of potential Tesla sales.

Wait... Hunh? What?!? Dude, when was the last time that Volvo, AUDI, and Jaguar were a sales threat to... anyone? The Federal EV Tax Credits offered for the very few electric vehicles those companies offer will be just enough to keep those companies from closing their doors for good. None of them will be particularly affordable, and they stand no hope of becoming sales leaders in their market segment.

It wasn't long ago that every Tesla created was delayed. They were always late until the weren't. It was much easier for manufacturers to take EVs lightly 5 years ago. With competitors committing to it, that has changed and I expect that the sense of urgency to adapt will as well.

Assuming they are released in a timely fashion at all, none of those companies will make a dedicated effort toward selling them in large numbers. Every AUDI e-tron product has been repeatedly delayed, or canceled to be replaced by another concept car that is repeatedly delayed -- and those are plug-in hybrids that are woefully inadequate even when they are released.

Will Tesla need tax credits to sell hundreds of thousands of cars? no...but some of their competitive advantage is disappearing. They have to be $7500 more compelling than rivals, which isn't easy to do -- even with a headstart on their own battery factory.

The Model Y won't need tax credits to be compelling. Neither will the Model ☰. Because Tesla will design their vehicles to be the best available, not just the best electric cars. Elon Musk that Tesla cannot get away with their cars just being 'a little bit better' because then no one would have a reason to buy them. They have to be a LOT better -- than all of the other cars -- to compel a purchase.

On what planet is the CR-V a direct competitor to the Model Y? In 2-3 years, when the car comes out, there will be compelling SUVs from premium brands. All THOSE brands need to do is come within 7K of the Model Y in terms of price with similar quality and they will sell them as fast as they can be produced.

Did Chevy fall flat on its face with the Bolt?...yea -- but Chevy is a different caliber of car. Nobody lines up to buy a Chevy. The people who can afford to shell out the premium for a EV over an ICE aren't generally interested or impressed by the Chevy brand. This is a different animal when you get into premium EVs. In the long term, will luxury brands be able to oust Tesla, probably not...but while they have the tax credit advantage, I think they will steal plenty of sales.

Look at it this way... General Motors offers the Chevrolet BOLT for more money than the Cadillac ATS, Chevrolet MALIBU, and Buick LaCrosse. Is the BOLT a better car than any of those? No. It isn't. That's why the BOLT is outsold by the ATS, MALIBU, and LaCrosse. And if new electric vehicles from AUDI, Jaguar, and Volvo are not better than their own ICE vehicles, then they have no hope of being better than Tesla's cars. Meanwhile, all Tesla has to do is design a Model Y that is obviously better than a Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Nissan Rogue, or Ford Escape -- for about the same money. That should be easy.
 
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Will Tesla need tax credits to sell hundreds of thousands of cars? no...but some of their competitive advantage is disappearing. They have to be $7500 more compelling than rivals, which isn't easy to do -- even with a headstart on their own battery factory.

$7500 in the U.S.

The super secret master plan was probably for China to be coming on strong as the U.S. fades with the tax credit expiration. While that can't happen now, Tesla has always had good luck with some area becoming hot to offset problems in other locations.

But you are correct that there will be some compelling mid priced EVs in -2020 that will benefit greatly in the U.S. from the tax credit. Tesla is not the only company capable of planning
 
I see 300 cars of those brands on the road for every tesla i see in my area -- granted those companies have been around a lot longer. I'm not crowning any of them the leader in EVs -- Tesla clearly has a firm hold on that position, but I think its naive to think that their collective move towards producing EVs won't take a bite out of potential Tesla sales.
Sooner than you may believe, there will be 30 Tesla vehicles for every one of the AUDI, Jaguar, and Volvo vehicles you see on the road, just about anywhere in the U.S. Your mistake is in the notion that Tesla exists to compete with plug-in hybrids and electric compliance cars. No. Tesla exists to make electric vehicle ubiquitous and affordable for all.

It wasn't long ago that every Tesla created was delayed. They were always late until the weren't. It was much easier for manufacturers to take EVs lightly 5 years ago. With competitors committing to it, that has changed and I expect that the sense of urgency to adapt will as well.
AUDI has been around at least 94 years longer -- you'd think they could do a better job by now. I would be very surprised if AUDI's supposed 90 kWh fully electric version of the Q7 or whatever arrives during 2018. My guess is that it will be mysteriously pushed off to 2020 to 2022 instead. I still harbor serious doubts that any of the traditional automobile manufacturers are in any substantial way 'committed' to electric vehicles at all. I suppose there may be some small hope for AUDI, since they are part of Volkswagen Group, and can no longer offer 'dirty diesel' vehicles to anyone any longer. I certainly believe they should have a 'sense of urgency' but feel they probably don't have one at all, and will end up having a panic attack instead.

Will Tesla need tax credits to sell hundreds of thousands of cars? no...but some of their competitive advantage is disappearing. They have to be $7500 more compelling than rivals, which isn't easy to do -- even with a headstart on their own battery factory.
Their 'competitive advantage' involves considerably more than a Federal EV Tax Credit. The Model S costs less than all its direct competitors before any incentives are considered at all. The driving experience of a Model S surpasses that of ICE cars by a wide, wide margin. The Sales experience from Tesla is unmatched by others who use 'independent franchised dealerships'. The Model ☰ will offer better value than its direct competitors, no matter the drivetrain. The Model ☰ will offer a compelling driving experience that a BMW 330e or i3 will not be able to match. And with a lower starting price than either, while offering Performance of cars from that brand that cost more, the Model ☰ will be an absolute bargain to behold. Heck, the 330e and i3 aren't even compelling compared to the Chevrolet VOLT and Ford Fusion Energi plug-ins. Meanwhile, AUDI A4, Jaguar XE, and Volvo S60 will also get their butts handed to them by Model ☰ sales, well after any Federal EV Tax Credit is around. Nothing those companies do within the next five years will save them from the onslaught.

On what planet is the CR-V a direct competitor to the Model Y? In 2-3 years, when the car comes out, there will be compelling SUVs from premium brands. All THOSE brands need to do is come within 7K of the Model Y in terms of price with similar quality and they will sell them as fast as they can be produced.
The Honda CR-V is the best selling SUV in the U.S. for years on end. Thus, it is the benchmark for the market segment. Assuming the Model Y is to be an SUV, it must target the best selling vehicle as an example of the superiority of electric drive over ICE, just as the Model ☰ has targeted the BMW 3-Series. Just as Ford Escape, Nissan Rogue, and Toyota RAV4 all target the Honda CR-V, so must Tesla if they are to succeed with a mass market SUV to potentially reach 300,000 U.S. Customers per year. None of the high end vehicles from premium brands comes close in sales, so they can be ignored entirely.

Did Chevy fall flat on its face with the Bolt?...yea -- but Chevy is a different caliber of car. Nobody lines up to buy a Chevy. The people who can afford to shell out the premium for a EV over an ICE aren't generally interested or impressed by the Chevy brand. This is a different animal when you get into premium EVs. In the long term, will luxury brands be able to oust Tesla, probably not...but while they have the tax credit advantage, I think they will steal plenty of sales.
You miss the point entirely. The BOLT is a car of a body style that commands a $20,000 premium above the Honda FIT it most closely resembles. This is similar to the mistake GM made with the Cadillac ELR -- it was bad enough it was released at a $35,000 premium over the Chevrolet VOLT, but it was also at a $40,000 premium over Cadillac's own ATS Coupe -- which was an obviously BETTER car in every way. If GM had asked for as much as $42,000 for a fully electric version of the Buick LaCrosse, and called it the 'ELECTRA' they would definitely have people lining up for it. Especially if it were Supercharger compatible with a 238 mile EPA rated range -- and nobody would give a flaming fig about Federal EV Tax Credits for it. The same would be true of a $54,000 fully electric Chevrolet Corvette, or $42,000 Chevrolet Camaro, or $47,000 Cadillac ATS. Thing is? GM doesn't WANT people lining up for a Buick, or any other electric car. They want to sell ICE vehicles, SUVs and Pickup Trucks, for as long as they possibly can do so legally. It isn't about branding, it is about willingness and intent.
 
That's it exactly Sage.

Innovators dilemma. I would think all of the CEOs of Ford, GM, Toyota, etc have read this book. But they are still trapped by the fact they run large companies and are facing a disruptive technology. The only was for them to survive is to create a separate, free standing and autonomous EV division and allow that division to compete head to head with their own products. And I don't think any of them have the balls to do that.
SO they will all suffer.
If Ford was smart they WOULD buy Lucid and allow them to run that business the way they see fit. I just don't think they will do that.
 
On what planet is the CR-V a direct competitor to the Model Y? In 2-3 years, when the car comes out, there will be compelling SUVs from premium brands.
Probably the same planet that the Model 3 will compete with Civics and Accords (i.e. this one). If I wasn't buying a Tesla, the cars I would consider would be sedans from Toyota, Honda, and Subaru. When it comes time to replace our Forester, I will probably favor the Model Y if it doesn't have falcon wing doors, and another Forester if it does.
 
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Probably the same planet that the Model 3 will compete with Civics and Accords (i.e. this one). If I wasn't buying a Tesla, the cars I would consider would be sedans from Toyota, Honda, and Subaru. When it comes time to replace our Forester, I will probably favor the Model Y if it doesn't have falcon wing doors, and another Forester if it does.
Enjoy your new 2020 Forester! :D
 
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@Red Sage said " I suppose there may be some small hope for AUDI, since they are part of Volkswagen Group, and can no longer offer 'dirty diesel' vehicles to anyone any longer. I certainly believe they should have a 'sense of urgency' but feel they probably don't have one at all, and will end up having a panic attack instead."

No comment, I just wanted to stamp this line for posterity. :))
 
I agree traditional car companies haven't advanced much over the past 30 years. They are happy with the status quo, but Tesla has shaken that up and I don't see most of them sticking to the ICE as first priority mentality for much longer. Will they still sell ICE's?...sure, but I do think real efforts will be made to expedite their adoption, especially when seeing how BMW 3-series sales are declining ahead of the Model 3 launch.

These companies aren't just going to stand by and let a large chunk of their sales move to EVs without adapting.

 
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No consensus. I think the price will remain unchanged.

The price would seem to need to be the same for all Teslas. The value of EAP/FSD should be the same for all drivers.
It'll be interesting to see. This is valuable software but something that should also be made available to as many people as possible, mainly for safety and efficiency reasons.

Can't see too many in the Camry/Accord crowd forking over an extra $5,000 for EAP/FSD, so I imagine we'll see the price stay high-ish initially, and then drop off over the next few years as the features transition from novelty to essential.
 
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It'll be interesting to see. This is valuable software but something that should also be made available to as many people as possible, mainly for safety and efficiency reasons.

Can't see too many in the Camry/Accord crowd forking over an extra $5,000 for EAP/FSD, so I imagine we'll see the price stay high-ish initially, and then drop off over the next few years as the features transition from novelty to essential.

Why would a company lower the price on a product right after the market realizes they need it?
 
That's it exactly Sage.

Innovators dilemma. I would think all of the CEOs of Ford, GM, Toyota, etc have read this book. But they are still trapped by the fact they run large companies and are facing a disruptive technology. The only was for them to survive is to create a separate, free standing and autonomous EV division and allow that division to compete head to head with their own products. And I don't think any of them have the balls to do that.
SO they will all suffer.
If Ford was smart they WOULD buy Lucid and allow them to run that business the way they see fit. I just don't think they will do that.
Ford and Toyota are trapped the worst, because they both have incredibly profitable ICE vehicle lines (truck/Camry). And, as you see, they're two of the three companies (the other being Fiat-Chrysler who's utterly clueless) who have no real EV program to speak of.

And, as we see, the German carmakers are all moving strongly toward EVs because they've been freed from their ICE heritage by scandal.

It's playing out exactly as one would expect. If Ford doesn't move on EVs, they'll be cornered into just being a truck company, and eventually that will be removed from them as well.
 
True, but even the fast moving ICE makers like Mercedes may not be able to survive the disruption.
The problem is they will be losing revenue and spending lots on capital to convert, all while just trying to maintain market share. Meanwhile Tesla's market share will keep growing and growing.
Sometimes it sucks to be big, and that is the situation they are all in.
I know this has gotten a little off topic but I think it's interesting, so if the mods want to create a new thread for the "Disruption of the automobile market" please feel free.
 
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