Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[JeffK]

It is hard to judge the speed of vehicles a long distance off and we can't expect trucks to yield unlimited room.

True, but you'd better believe if the Tesla had been another semi-truck the driver would have yielded.

A Tesla will likely not leave skid marks even with full on braking. The car will not break traction.

the "black box" will actually say exactly if and when brakes were hit. No need to guess anymore by using skid marks or the positions of the planets.

 

[nikielizabeth]

Stella Liebeck had her life ruined by McDonald's hot coffee, but she stood up to the giant corporation and your life and mine are safer for it. You should read up on her - she's was a courageous woman and I admire her.

HOT COFFEE, a documentary feature film

Ok, I will bite. I did my due diligence and read a few different write ups about the Stella Liebeck case. My quote (insensitive or not) was a general statement has been used before (maybe not in this forum or on this site) as the example of people needing instructions for what seems to be the obvious (coffee = hot). Like that statement or not - it is the truth.

What is also the truth is it was sad and unfortunate that she had 3rd degree burns at her age. It was also sad that the $2M+ she sought for punitive damages was reduced to $450K, especially since she had medical bills and a job that probably provided little to no health insurance and/or paid leave.

Yes, what happened to her was very sad.

So, for all of those sitting pretty on their high 'forum' horse, my deepest, most sincere apologies that I hurt your feelings. No different as I hear people pass judgement on a man driving a car in autopilot. I guess I wear my butt-hurt a bit differently.

And, for the record, McDonalds didn't change the temp of the coffee even after the lawsuit. Just like autopilot will (and should) continue to be available for people to use - with caution. If you don't use caution then unfortunate things can happen.

 

[tinm]

I've said about all I can say about this tragedy except one thing.

Joshua Brown was One of Us. He was a Tesla owner, an enthusiast, a friend and supporter of the company. Just like Us. This tragedy saddens me. I wish it hadn't happened. I fear more such incidents will happen. One thing we can all do, especially if you are a member of an owners club, is make sure owners are educated. Make sure they know that Mobileye has indicated it doesn't support cross traffic. That is a huge deal imho, and means you don't use driver assistance features unless you're on a freeway. At the very least, make sure your friends and acquaintances as well as you yourself are completely familiarized with Tesla's instructions for safe use of these technologies. Be careful out there.

 

[Max*]

Source? I've seen no evidence of that.

Yeah, I'm not even sure he was married. The blog says family, news stories say the family is his brother and parents, not wife and kids.

I can't find any info one way or another.

 

[omarsultan]

They posted it because the NHTSA is investigating, and word would get out.

Perhaps you are missing the part where Tesla made the initial report to the NHTSA in the first place? Since NHTSA is opening an investigation, it makes total sense to put out a blog post to provide some context, especially after the foolishness around the suspension investigation--where is the fault in that?

And I gotta ask, what fault do you find in the seatbelt recall?

I both these cases, I can imagine many car companies would stay mum and hope no one notices.

 

[Max*]

I couldn't resist not replying

And I gotta ask, what fault do you find in the seatbelt recall?

Fault? None. I just saw it as a PR grab, and Tesla is great at PR.
1 seatbelt in 1 Tesla somewhere had a loose screw, due to who knows what, and they issued a recall for ALL seat-belts. Come on.

 

[Pdub2015]

Tesla is decent, not great, in PR. And they better be, since they don't rely on paid advertising.

 

[bhzmark]

speeding tickets are not very interesting. More interesting in that article is the line: "The family statement released Friday through a personal injury law firm says 40-year-old Joshua D. Brown was passionate . . ."

family speaking through a personal injury law firm.

Could be the family friend happens to be a lawyer at a PI firm . . .

The records obtained by The Associated Press show Joshua Brown was cited for speeding seven times in Ohio between 2010 and 2015 and once in Virginia.

The records show the 40-year-old Brown was cited most recently for driving 64 miles per hour in a 35 mph zone in northeastern Ohio last August.

The Latest: Speed Tickets for Man Dead in Driverless Crash

 

[4SUPER9]

Let me play devil's advocate for a second and blame both drivers...

First the truck driver crossed oncoming traffic without properly yielding and that's an undeniable fact.

Is it indeed a fact? If the Tesla was speeding, and the truck driver proceeded with appropriate timing for typical cross traffic, then would he still be at fault? The latest news feed stated that indeed, the Tesla driver was moving extremely fast (opinion at this point, not fact yet). Let's give a hypothetical scenario, where a car is driving at 100 MPH in a 55 zone and slammed into someone crossing. The vehicle crossing could in no way see that coming.

So, until we know ALL the facts, I cannot assume that the truck driver had any liability, nor should he have been cited.

 

[msnow]

I couldn't resist not replying



Fault? None. I just saw it as a PR grab, and Tesla is great at PR.
1 seatbelt in 1 Tesla somewhere had a loose screw, due to who knows what, and they issued a recall for ALL seat-belts. Come on.

Not really a fair or accurate characterization of what happened Max. They found that the tool that was supposed to be used that ensures the proper torque was not used in every case. They had no choice but to check all cars. The quick and public messaging could have been PR but their action wasn't. It was necessary.

 

[Max*]

I cannot assume that the truck driver had any liability

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[JeffK]

Is it indeed a fact? If the Tesla was speeding, and the truck driver proceeded with appropriate timing for typical cross traffic, then would he still be at fault? The latest news feed stated that indeed, the Tesla driver was moving extremely fast (opinion at this point, not fact yet). Let's give a hypothetical scenario, where a car is driving at 100 MPH in a 55 zone and slammed into someone crossing. The vehicle crossing could in no way see that coming.

So, until we know ALL the facts, I cannot assume that the truck driver had any liability, nor should he have been cited.

Let me quote a news source
"Police estimate Brown was traveling at the posted 65-mph speed limit."

 

[Max*]

Not really a fair or accurate characterization of what happened Max. They found that the tool that was supposed to be used that ensures the proper torque was not used in every case. They had no choice but to check all cars. The quick and public messaging could have been PR but their action wasn't. It was necessary.

How many Tesla's were actually affected by the recall? 1, the initial one. Not a single other one found, that I'm aware of (if I'm wrong, then I'll take it back, and it wasn't just a PR grab).


Maybe I'm jaded and have been burned too many times, but I'm not drinking the kool-aid. I love my Tesla though, but as a company Tesla communication could be better. <for me> it either comes on too hard/too strong, or not enough/not at all.

 

[bhzmark]

Tesla already said in the blog that brakes were not applied by the car or its driver.

 

[Pdub2015]

Yep. It is not an apples to apples comparison at all.

If AP in its current state if used ALL the time, including in conditions where it's not safe, doesn't work or barely works, the accident rate would skyrocket and I'm sure would be far worse the normal, unassisted stat (e.g. "Among all vehicles in the US, there is a fatality every 94 million miles.")

Er...? The existing metric is one fatality (so far) in 130 million AP-enabled miles, and you're speculating that the metric would be worse if the drivers didn't exercise safe behavior by choosing not to use it in unsafe conditions? What exactly does that prove?

 

[BrokerDon]

Hm...nope. But what I do know is that I have better things to do with my time than start an argument on a forum.

Have a lovely day, and I hope your *sighs* go away. Waste of a good breath if you ask me...

I couldn't agree more. Sadly forums have become less informational and more argumentative... Which rarely end with anyone changing their mind. Life's short... Let's enjoy what we have of it!

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Is it indeed a fact? If the Tesla was speeding, and the truck driver proceeded with appropriate timing for typical cross traffic, then would he still be at fault? The latest news feed stated that indeed, the Tesla driver was moving extremely fast (opinion at this point, not fact yet). Let's give a hypothetical scenario, where a car is driving at 100 MPH in a 55 zone and slammed into someone crossing. The vehicle crossing could in no way see that coming.

So, until we know ALL the facts, I cannot assume that the truck driver had any liability, nor should he have been cited.

I'm sure many of us have been in the situation where we make a left turn when it is safe to do so...and once we start that turn, an obstacle/person/animal, etc. suddenly blocks our intended path. In such a situation, we can either plow forward and hit the obstacle/person/animal or slow down and and wait for them to pass...and hope that oncoming traffic sees what is happening and takes appropriate action to avoid a collision.

Another example that might be more common would be when going through an intersection on a green light and suddenly traffic on the other side of the intersection stops and you are stuck in the intersection as the light changes to red. You then have to figure out how to safely exit the intersection and hope that cross traffic doesn't blindly run into you since they have the right of way. Many of you will say that you shouldn't go through the intersection unless it is safe to do so...but sometimes it's safe to enter an intersection but things change as you traverse it.

 

[Electricfan]

Ok, I will bite. I did my due diligence and read a few different write ups about the Stella Liebeck case. My quote (insensitive or not) was a general statement has been used before (maybe not in this forum or on this site) as the example of people needing instructions for what seems to be the obvious (coffee = hot). Like that statement or not - it is the truth.

What is also the truth is it was sad and unfortunate that she had 3rd degree burns at her age. It was also sad that the $2M+ she sought for punitive damages was reduced to $450K, especially since she had medical bills and a job that probably provided little to no health insurance and/or paid leave.

Yes, what happened to her was very sad.

So, for all of those sitting pretty on their high 'forum' horse, my deepest, most sincere apologies that I hurt your feelings. No different as I hear people pass judgement on a man driving a car in autopilot. I guess I wear my butt-hurt a bit differently.

And, for the record, McDonalds didn't change the temp of the coffee even after the lawsuit. Just like autopilot will (and should) continue to be available for people to use - with caution. If you don't use caution then unfortunate things can happen.

From what I've read McDonald's did indeed lower the serving temp of their coffee. Even if they didn't, Stella made our lives safer by raising awareness of the danger. And you didn't hurt my feelings. I mention Stella anytime somebody raises the "hot coffee" issue, because like you they most often don't know the full story. Sounds like after reading you still think McDonalds should sell and serve coffee at a temperature that can put somebody in the hospital. We'll have to disagree on that. And I sincerely hope Tesla does something different in the near future concerning AP. Pull the software until its significantly improved, or augment our 1.0 hardware. Something. I hope Joshua Brown didn't die in vain.

Here's a link reporting a 10 degree reduction in McDonald's coffee temp, but it does sound like hear-say in this one. I've read other reports that refer to McDonalds changing the temp as well. But corporations are $- centric and I wouldn't doubt they've gone back to their old ways. I read a lot about more lawsuits against McDonalds recently over coffee temp. Its a shame if they just don't care about public safety.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/21/b...edCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article

 

[Electric700]

It appears that both parties would have some sort of fault in this situation.
I spend an enormous amount of time in the Vehicle and the Autopilot is activated around 90% of the time. I'm very familiar with what triggers its braking-
...
NEED MORE INFORMATION--- speeds- surrounding traffic- The sun's affect on view
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View attachment 183598 View attachment 183599

The intersection in question:
Google Maps
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View attachment 183598 View attachment 183599

There could have been another semi-trailer in the turn lane that was blocking the view from the east and west. We all should be careful when approaching intersections, whether Autopilot is engaged or not, and slow down. I feel badly for all involved in this tragic situation.

 

[JeffK]

There could have been another semi-trailer in the turn lane that was blocking the view from the east and west. We all should be careful when approaching intersections, whether Autopilot is engaged or not, and slow down. I feel badly for all involved in this tragic situation.

This was a divided highway where it's usually not appropriate to slow down for intersections unless you know something is going on.