Feeling less and less comfortable

[Pollux]

More to think about. 150 is way different than 200. Yes, autopilot is a big draw, just have to remember it is really not autopilot.

Hi, Karen, I'm responding to this statement only because I believe it's important to level-set in people's minds re meaning of "autopilot". I believe it carries connotations of "car will drive itself for you from point A to point B", and seemingly is associated with an airplane's "autopilot". What I think most people don't realize (I certainly didn't) is that an airplane's autopilot is REQUIRED to be used under a pilot's supervision. The pilot doesn't just set it and go to sleep or walk away; and if s/he did, she would be disciplined and possibly lose her job. The original airplane autopilots were very primitive and could barely keep the plane level or at a particular speed. They have evolved. I don't have any privileged knowledge of why Tesla called the feature "Autopilot", but you could certainly analogize with an airplane autopilot, including (1) evolution over time and (2) requirement for human supervision. You could even argue that Tesla got the name right.

Alan

 

[MacOnWheels]

My S 60D should be arriving in Houston in a couple of days. I sympathized with your current state of mind. As far as signing or not signing to take a test drive, I'm sure it is Tesla's policy is to have the sales reps request customers to sign. Some sales reps may either forget or decide not to ask. Bottom line, it is just a business process. If I were you I would go back to the Tesla showroom and find another sales rep. You may even want to start the conversation with how you feel you were treated the first time. I'm sure you'll have a different experience. Personally I had two phone call sessions and two in person trips to the Houston Galleria showroom. All were with different sales reps. I was interested in the Figured Ash Wood decor and at the time couldn't find and good pictures. That was what one of my phone calls was about. Monika said they had an X with that decor. She went out to the garage and took six pictures all around the dash and emailed them to me. Try that at another car dealership. The sales reps are just people. Some are better at their jobs than others. I hope that your experience with Tesla changes and that you feel as good as I do about the company and the people. Best of luck.

 

[brkaus]

I'd also point out that there is lots of FUD on these type of forums.

I decided to wait for a 3 (S doesn't fit in my garage).

I've been browsing web forums for both Honda & Toyota cars and I see lots of complaints and even cars returned under lemon laws.

There are always going to be outliers.

 

[johnster007]

Karen,

I'm a fellow Minnesotan who took delivery in March of 2013 of a beautiful, black S85. Since my car came off the assembly line Tesla has made thousands (literally) of improvements to build quality. In striking contrast to the traditional automakers, improvements are made realtime and Tesla doesn't wait for a new model year. That said, at 55,000 miles, my early 2013 car is higher quality than the BMWs I've owned prior.

For me owning a Tesla is not only about owning a quality vehicle. It's about joining a passionate group of people who want to change the world, it's about having state of the art tech behind the wheel, it's about feeling safe, its about having one of the most beautiful cars on the road, it's about feeling like I'm getting away with something when I can drive for 1.5 cents a mile (off-peak rate), it's about making driving fun again.

Since you have the resources, you've already committed too much headspace to this decision. Get it and don't look back. You will not regret it.

 

[sandpiper]

Thanks you guys. I have a real thing about honesty and forthcomingness. It just makes my internal alarm bells go off. I actually knew or got to know my last couple of car salesmen at Lexus and Toyota, and really totally trusted them and their advice. I didn't feel that way here.

I can believe battery model is not a bad idea, but it is a different idea for me. I think I would go for 60 model, but I would like the ability to go cross country and not sure how crazy this would make me (I prefer to drive for 8-12 hour stretches and then stop for the night, so big change).

Here is a link to one of the discussions about the suspension: Suspension Problem on Model S. This guy had a control arm failure. It's a really long thread. I have seen similar things elsewhere. There was also a thread someplace where the guy had purchased a CPO, took it home because he needed to use it, and had expected them to deal with pitting on glass and paint job but I think was not getting the response he expected. Couldn't find it again.

I don't know a lot about cars, and I'm very frugal - so this adds to my nervousness. I don't want to buy a lemon! I want to be treated like a queen like I still am for my really-old Camry and was for my Lexus, where I feel like they will go out of their way to make things right at a fair price. I know there can be outliers for anything, but I just need to know that, in general, people are having good experience with their retailers.

Wow. Your experience at Toyota was vastly different than mine. Yes trust, in that I found that I could 100% trust that the salesperson would operate entirely based on self interest and would work like heck to sell me the most costly thing that I would buy at the highest margin possible with zero regard for what my actual needs or wants were. The Tesla point click, buy model was fantastic.

 

[blc1017]

I think if I go ahead I'll start small, and then up if I have to. Now that my kids are so busy and older, road trips are not as likely. I keep thinking about them because we had a lots of fun on some of them, but will it really occur? Not sure!

You've got me curious - how does it take more care?

I'll answer this from my perspective. I find that I didn't care that our previous cars got rock chips, went through the automatic car wash, and had food crumbs stuffed in seat crevices. This car makes me want to care for it...two bucket hand washing, careful vacuuming once a week, paint protection film. It is so beautiful, so quiet, so fun to drive, so...everything...I can't help myself! And by the way, I have two dogs, a 75 lb lab and a 10lb dachshund, who fit nicely in the back with the seats up. They enjoy the big hatch to look out of.

 

[Karen in MN]

In the fatal crash a tractor trailer made a left turn crossing oncoming traffic. The Tesla drove underneath the trailer losing its roof and continued a considerable distance, going through two fences and eventually stopping when it hit a telephone pole. Reports are that a portable DVD player was found in the car and it was playing a Harry Potter movie.

Three failures contributed to this fatality: 1) The truck turned in front of the car (the proximate cause), 2) The driver was driving in an unsafe manner--speeding (maybe 85 mph) and not watching the road and 3) The collision avoidance system failed to see the truck--probably because the RADAR and the camera did not both see the truck due to low contrast between the truck and the sky.

I have never heard that 4" intrusion number, but in general a Tesla, and any low-slung car is not going to protect you when it hits something high up at high speed. There is another fatal crash story when a high-bumpered SUV plowed into the back of a Model S, killing a child in the back seat.

That said, tens of thousands die in auto crashes, and the Tesla is the safest car on the road; it's just not able to protect everyone in extreme situations.

LastGas - did I thank you for this? Thank you! Geez, that's really too bad, he had become overly confident.

I can imagine that Tesla is very safe. Maybe I mis-heard on 4" intrusion claim, but that was another part of my becoming skeptical.

 

[Karen in MN]

Karen, you're not the target market. You mentioned your dogs in the first line alone - meaning, you have other lifestyle concerns above being a Tesla fan or hobbyist or EV centric person. Why are you interested in self-driving? Tesla sells driver-assist. What do you intend to do while the car is driving? Work? Texting? Reading? Reducing your own personal responsibility while entertaining a very dangerous aspect of life (which is automobile travel)?

Everything is under a 4-year, 50k warranty. Not too different from everything else except Kia/Hyunday (Korean-made) at 100,000 mi.

Does the responsibility document actually require your personal insurance company to cover the car in case of a test-drive crash?

Have you considered using the money for a community good? What do your annual giving routines include - community church, program, national/international charities? Have you been through Financial Peace University?

Yes, I do support a lot of causes, but we also need a third car! 8^)

 

[Karen in MN]

How did the crash occur?

The car was driven in AP mode at excessive speed for the conditions (77 on a 60 mph) on a road that is not suitable for AP - a road that has perpendicular cross traffic. That was the root cause. The sensors and the system are not designed to work in those conditions. In other words the system did not have glitch or a failure. It is simply not made to work in those roads effectively.

It is designed to be used primarily on controlled access highways - the ones that have on ramp and off ramp - and only if it has normal painted lanes. Not on construction areas with bots or barrels or cones instead of painted lanes.

Now it will work on back roads too with well marked lanes and I have used it nicely, but only for short durations and with extra caution.

If you understand those basic parameters and use common sense you will love it. For instance if you drive in the right lane and you are behind another car and if that car takes the exit, your car will try to follow that car too. So I try and always go to the middle or left lane.

Observe and understand how it works. Use it on limited access highways. And use common sense.

You will then realize that this is best driver aid ever implemented by anyone over the last 100 years of automotive history.

Gone are the days luxury means better leather, wood, knobs and buttons, and perfect paint job. There is a new luxury in town - it is called relieving your stress considerably by the car driving itself. Tesla is the only one that does that with ease as of today.

That's interesting about how the car will follow another car off the road! I like beauty, but that is fleeing (especially in my house!), and stress reduction is where it's at.

 

[Karen in MN]

Comparison of Model X vs Model S Storage Space

Good info. I think my dogs would be happier in X for head room (unless used second seat of S without folding down). However, one is getting old (9yo German Shepherd with a little hip discomfort) and will have to make sure he can get in OK.

 

[Saghost]

LastGas - did I thank you for this? Thank you! Geez, that's really too bad, he had become overly confident.

I can imagine that Tesla is very safe. Maybe I mis-heard on 4" intrusion claim, but that was another part of my becoming skeptical.

I think maybe the tech was trying to talk about the side impact pole test and the story got confused somehow?

If you watch the Model X unveiling event video (there's one on the Tesla X site, and I think several on YouTube,) Elon did talk about four inches in the context of crash safety:

The X apparently only allows four inches of penetration into the cabin on the standard side impact pole test, while the best Tesla could find in the results of other SUVs was eight inches.

Crash safety is a confusing mess, with different things desirable in different circumstances - you want the slowest acceleration for the people inside, but you also want the least physical penetration into the cabin structure. So for maximum survivability, you want big zones outside the cabin that crush to absorb energy, and then an ultra rigid cabin that holds its shape and keeps everything out.

 

[Karen in MN]

Dear Karen,

Your situation is not quite like mine, but it is quite similar to that of several (I am thinking of four specific ones) people I know. All of them are not "car people". All of them have never spent anything close to the price of a Tesla before. All of them are passionate about their cars now but were beset with anxiety prior to actually taking delivery of their cars.

Here are the issues I recall from those people and the reactions after they took delivery:

1. What am I doing?!? Is this a ridiculous purchase? Answers: Yes, probably it is ridiculous but I love it! Every single one expressed similar sentiments, even the one that to my absolute knowledge really did not have enough money to do it, but skimped on lots of other things to do it. She says she'd do it again, but shakes her head about her 'irrational' decision.

2. Range anxiety. That one seems to require a few months to recede, especially from S60 buyers, but recede it does, and it is much less of an issue now than it was a year ago, will be less a year from now as Superchargers and other charging options proliferate.

3. Autopilot. This drives people nuts! Of my four friends two have autopilot, two do not. From all the discussions I think autopilot is worthwhile for people who are comfortable with new technology, comfortable enough that they'll never assume it will work, comfortable enough to enjoy it when it does but also excercise get eternal vigilance. If that describes you, by all means take the option. If it does not don't take it! Even in my household I love autopilot my spouse refuses to use it at all. Both opinions are legitimate, I think, and it is nuts to pay for it if you will not use it. Anyway, it can be activated after purchase if you decide you want it later.

All other issues seem to pale after these with a single exception:

4. Why on earth would I spend more than twice the price of any other car I have ever owned? This one is really the most difficult one, in my opinion. In the final analysis tis is an emotional decision, not a rational one. I don't think anybody can offer a useful perspective on that, other than that the other people who have done it seem very happy that they did it.

I have not said a word about Tesla customer service, the joys of leaving ICE behind, no more gasoline stations, etc. All those are borderline rational at the very least.

Finally, don't rely on anything I say. I'm deliriously happy with my Tesla and I'll replace it only for a better Tesla, nothing else!

Sounds like you and your friends have found your car. I think someone mentioned having it for a weekend or something - this is something I want to look into. I think it might up my level of comfort. In particular, the braking thing whenever you take your foot of the gas. I am kind of concerned about leg cramps. I guess on long journeys I can use cruise control (I'm not quite clear on divisions of Tesla autopilot - will have to look at owners' manuals).

 

[Karen in MN]

Hi K,

At the risk of being flamed by pro Tesla people, I would say to be open to other EV or even plug in car offerings.

I completely understand about the reliability and service concerns. My former cars were (2) Toyota trucks and an Accord, which I loved. My friend driving a Leaf told me about EVs, did a few test drives, was sold on the lack of maintenance costs and simplicity of the EV products. The lease specials and state rebates helped too. But range being a concern, decided to tip toe in and try a plug in 1st gen Volt on a lease.

- I will not likely ever move back to an ICE car again. EV / EV mode is just so quiet, smooth and torque-y (fast acceleration). And w/ regen braking, it's a fun game of trying to be super efficient when driving.
- Tesla isn't the only game in town. It's likely the best EV out there in terms of range, perf, safety but yes, until model 3 comes out, it is a higher tier car category. I'd urge you to test drive a Nissan Leaf, a Chevy Volt, BMW i3, Tesla and VW eGolf. Feel comfortable about what's out there before making a decision.
- Account for all of the expenses of internal combustion engine (ICE) car. I put it on a spreadsheet and realized maintenance costs are significant (oil change, smog tests, 30, 60, 90K maintenance), as well as gas costs. PPl don't think about those b/c they come regularly and are spread out over time but a 3, 5, 10 yr analysis of total costs shows true cost.
- Toyota/Lexus/Honda do have their share of problems too. Google search toyota/lexus engine sludge problems (from 1997 to about 2005 I guess). Massive problem.

Good luck on your quest!

I tried the Chevy Volt, didn't love it. I'm not talking to VW right now after emissions test issues. I will have to get out and try the others. This is busy couple weeks with all sorts of arrangements going on with kids going back to school - so once that is done will start looking again.

 

[Karen in MN]

Oh boy oh boy oh boy. The dream of "one's own" car. I have dreamed that dream. I have dreamed it at night. I have dreamed it during the day. I have dreamed of a passenger ejection seat while watching my youngest(**) shed army men, string, rubber bands and my favorite tools (obviously acquired without my permission) all over the front seats. I have lovingly fantasized of my wife sticking all her various tubes of gunk and ointment back into her purse rather than colonizing precious space in the center console that could be left wide open and empty for that oh-so-tidy look. I have lived the nightmare of my wife's casual attitude towards curbs and things-that-go-scrape-in-the-night.(*)

Sisyphus had his stone.

Hercules had his stables.

And honestly, Karen, if there's anyone more taken advantage of than a father, it would be a mother. :-(

Here's what I encourage of you and what has worked (at least partially) for me: FIGHT! Rage, rage against the family blight! Make it clear long BEFORE Day One that the key fobs live with you; that the car is UNIMAGINABLY expensive (this one works particularly well with my wife); that the seat coverings are assembled one fiber at a time by specially-trained rhesus monkeys; that the car of the floor is not, in fact, a traveling rubbish bin but an ermine-lined bastion of lower-limb comfort. Blemishes, no matter how small, to the seating and cabin surfaces will be cured at your discretion but at THEIR cost. Body damage repair -- even the slightest dimple by a falling acorn (you'll have to drive some distance to find one, no doubt) -- will automatically be deducted from THEIR college, religious holiday or retirement fund.

Let me give you an example of the kind of attitude you need to foster.

One day, on a road trip from Boston to DC, a couple of years ago, I had temporarily suspended the usual no-food-no-drink rule. (I was already picturing the satisfying post-holiday visit to my local auto detailer who would personally remove by hand each and every evil crumb that would inevitably befoul my Precious.) As we left Starbucks and merged back into traffic, my then-16 year-old daughter cried out, "Papa! Don't worry about me! I just spilled hot coffee everywhere BUT I THREW MYSELF BETWEEN THE COFFEE AND THE SEAT!"(***)

Could ever a father be prouder of his child who willingly incurred not-quite-life-threatening burns in the service of a higher cause?

Alan

P.S. You know they make those little portable hand vacuums that can reach every crevice... Sadly, I don't have one... but after watching the advertisements, I'm pretty sure that a child as young as 4 can learn to operate one correctly when the other choice is an early, dinner-less bedtime.

(*)Some inexplicable honesty compels me to point out that the vast majority of all rim, wheel and tire "events" on my Tesla have been incurred by someone other than my wife. Whoever it really was, I'm confident he's a prince of a guy.

(**)Your car will be much cleaner in the long-run if, instead of an 11-year old boy as a passenger, you substitute a greased piglet.

(***)Dammit, she had the *words* right but the tone didn't even come close to the reverent pitch a mid-teen girl always uses with her father!

Laughing! I have a portable Dyson that I LOVE! It's great for just hanging on the wall and being there whenever I need it. You can take the extension pole off and use it in little spaces, or keep it on and vacuum up crumbs, spilled dog food, bird seed, etc. Love it!

 

[Karen in MN]

My guess is the driver was not paying attention combined with a lack of sensors/cameras, especially because there is none at eye level or higher and the trailer had a void where the car went under. I'm also guessing that AP2.0 (once released) may haves sufficient new hardware to avoid that type of accident, regardless of driver inattentiveness.



That depends on your nature. Some people here find it more, not less, stressful so it's not as a big a draw to them, at least until it can be relied upon more with new hardware. It's good that you understand it's limitations, though, and as such it may work out great for you.

I really want the autopilot for when I have to take my 16yo to his piano events downtown - which always seem to be around 5:30. There is just no good route and no good mass transit at that hour (going against traffic and bringing us back home in a timely manner). I do almost anything to not be out driving then. If I can use autopilot to deal with stop and go, it's worth it.

 

[Karen in MN]

Wow. Your experience at Toyota was vastly different than mine. Yes trust, in that I found that I could 100% trust that the salesperson would operate entirely based on self interest and would work like heck to sell me the most costly thing that I would buy at the highest margin possible with zero regard for what my actual needs or wants were. The Tesla point click, buy model was fantastic.

That's too bad. Like I said, I did know the Toyota guy was a friend we played duplicate bridge with, so I had some comfort in him, his knowledge of the car, and his integrity. Again, it depends on the dealer and who you get.

 

[Karen in MN]

I'll answer this from my perspective. I find that I didn't care that our previous cars got rock chips, went through the automatic car wash, and had food crumbs stuffed in seat crevices. This car makes me want to care for it...two bucket hand washing, careful vacuuming once a week, paint protection film. It is so beautiful, so quiet, so fun to drive, so...everything...I can't help myself! And by the way, I have two dogs, a 75 lb lab and a 10lb dachshund, who fit nicely in the back with the seats up. They enjoy the big hatch to look out of.

What configuration do you have? I have German Shepherd and really rangy Golden Mix (taller than Shepherd).

 

[jbcarioca]

Sounds like you and your friends have found your car. I think someone mentioned having it for a weekend or something - this is something I want to look into. I think it might up my level of comfort. In particular, the braking thing whenever you take your foot of the gas. I am kind of concerned about leg cramps. I guess on long journeys I can use cruise control (I'm not quite clear on divisions of Tesla autopilot - will have to look at owners' manuals).

Definitely it is worthwhile to drive one for a while before buying. Turo has Tesla in quite a few locations, and at least two in Chicago. I do not know about other nearer locations. Many of the issues you discuss will be resolved with a few days driving a Tesla, allowing you to make an informed decision without depending on the views of people like us, , who could be described as biased even though we think we're perfectly objective. I think we are, but it is hard to remain so when we have what most fo us think is the finest automobile in the world. As for the dogs you can put them in an S and see if that works well. if not, the X clearly has more room.

 

[Karen in MN]

Hi, Karen, I'm responding to this statement only because I believe it's important to level-set in people's minds re meaning of "autopilot". I believe it carries connotations of "car will drive itself for you from point A to point B", and seemingly is associated with an airplane's "autopilot". What I think most people don't realize (I certainly didn't) is that an airplane's autopilot is REQUIRED to be used under a pilot's supervision. The pilot doesn't just set it and go to sleep or walk away; and if s/he did, she would be disciplined and possibly lose her job. The original airplane autopilots were very primitive and could barely keep the plane level or at a particular speed. They have evolved. I don't have any privileged knowledge of why Tesla called the feature "Autopilot", but you could certainly analogize with an airplane autopilot, including (1) evolution over time and (2) requirement for human supervision. You could even argue that Tesla got the name right.

Alan

It's really almost a danger in some ways. It's so close to autopilot, and yet not quite trustable enough.

 

[Karen in MN]

My S 60D should be arriving in Houston in a couple of days. I sympathized with your current state of mind. As far as signing or not signing to take a test drive, I'm sure it is Tesla's policy is to have the sales reps request customers to sign. Some sales reps may either forget or decide not to ask. Bottom line, it is just a business process. If I were you I would go back to the Tesla showroom and find another sales rep. You may even want to start the conversation with how you feel you were treated the first time. I'm sure you'll have a different experience. Personally I had two phone call sessions and two in person trips to the Houston Galleria showroom. All were with different sales reps. I was interested in the Figured Ash Wood decor and at the time couldn't find and good pictures. That was what one of my phone calls was about. Monika said they had an X with that decor. She went out to the garage and took six pictures all around the dash and emailed them to me. Try that at another car dealership. The sales reps are just people. Some are better at their jobs than others. I hope that your experience with Tesla changes and that you feel as good as I do about the company and the people. Best of luck.

I agree. I don't want to smear the guy I had in person, he was probably fine. Rubbed me the wrong way is all. I don't want to say any more because if I were them I'd be monitoring these discussions for feedback.