Female engineer sues Tesla, describing a culture of 'pervasive harassment

[JOEV1]

To me it seems that all those TESLA- opposing elements here at the forum are clinging onto the "last straw" trying to put a negative image upon the company.
Needless to mention that this kind of discrimination happens everywhere and millions of times and unfortunatly- mobbing all over the globe.
And I could not agree with post of "ANTRONX" more.... sorry... imho

 

[cpa]

I have a question for y'all concerning engineers. If we ignore the engineers for the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe and their brethren, what exactly is an engineer? I have always assumed that in order to hold oneself out to the public as an engineer, one must be licensed by their state or government in civil, mechanical, electrical, structural engineering and receive a stamp. Other related fields like land surveying, geology, petroleum, chemical have other requirements, but may not have stamps or other official certifications. Or do they?

I ask this question because California forbids anyone to hold himself out to the public as an accountant unless they are a licensed CPA or PA. I am licensed, so I can have "accountant" on my door, stationery and anything else I wish. Unlicensed accountants can only use the term accountant as a job title or description when they are in the employ of another company. We also have continuing education requirements, conduct requirements and other requirements to renew and maintain our licenses. Failure to comply with these requirements results in license suspension, probation or revocation.

So, is it OK with the engineering field for anyone to claim that they are an engineer even though they have no education, no training and no understanding of all the science inherent in these fields? Can the plaintiff in this case open an office and call herself an engineer?

 

[mblakele]

I have a question for y'all concerning engineers. If we ignore the engineers for the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe and their brethren, what exactly is an engineer? I have always assumed that in order to hold oneself out to the public as an engineer, one must be licensed by their state or government in civil, mechanical, electrical, structural engineering and receive a stamp. Other related fields like land surveying, geology, petroleum, chemical have other requirements, but may not have stamps or other official certifications. Or do they?

I ask this question because California forbids anyone to hold himself out to the public as an accountant unless they are a licensed CPA or PA. I am licensed, so I can have "accountant" on my door, stationery and anything else I wish. Unlicensed accountants can only use the term accountant as a job title or description when they are in the employ of another company. We also have continuing education requirements, conduct requirements and other requirements to renew and maintain our licenses. Failure to comply with these requirements results in license suspension, probation or revocation.

So, is it OK with the engineering field for anyone to claim that they are an engineer even though they have no education, no training and no understanding of all the science inherent in these fields? Can the plaintiff in this case open an office and call herself an engineer?

To the best of my knowledge, California doesn't regulate who can say "I'm an engineer". The regulated designation is "Professional Engineer" (PE), and that's the variety that stamps things for official purposes. There's a test.

I know dozens of self-declared engineers. A subset of those have degrees containing the word "engineering". A few of those have a PE certification (in a nod to the thread topic, one of those PEs is a woman). A PE can be essential for certain career paths, but a team of engineers might contain only one PE. I've never met a software engineer with a PE, but maybe we will see that change.

Rules differ by jurisdiction: Regulation and licensure in engineering - Wikipedia

 

[Az_Rael]

I have a question for y'all concerning engineers. If we ignore the engineers for the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe and their brethren, what exactly is an engineer? I have always assumed that in order to hold oneself out to the public as an engineer, one must be licensed by their state or government in civil, mechanical, electrical, structural engineering and receive a stamp. Other related fields like land surveying, geology, petroleum, chemical have other requirements, but may not have stamps or other official certifications. Or do they?

It is not required of all engineering disciplines to be licensed. That is covered by the professional engineer PE designation and is normally used in the civil/mechanical engineering fields. In aerospace (my field), PEs are much less common. I have an Aerospace Engineering degree and my title at work is Aeronautical Engineer even though I do not have a PE. I do have a certification from the US government to do my particular job, however that is an entirely different animal than the licensing you are referring to and is relatively uncommon.

So... yes, in general it is OK to title yourself an engineer even if you are not a licensed professional engineer.

 

[PowerSource]

One of my customers is doing major reconstruction of their HQ including multi-level parking. They set up a true Valet Booth during construction complete with uniformed valet attendants and security guards in a nice large booth. It's sort of cute. A lot of effort on mgmt's part for a temporary situation. There are at least 3 Teslas I always see when I visit... but no EV charging! Odd since they are in Irvine, California.

That is bad since the Anaheim HQ of fisker is available and has a huge parking structure. Why would they move to a new facility in Irvine when there is a massive EV facility that is vacant that can accommodate that parking need?

 

[DillyBop]

A female engineer at Tesla has accused Elon Musk’s car company of ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”, paying her a lower salary than men doing the same work, promoting less qualified men over her and retaliating against her for raising concerns.

got it.

 

[NikeWings]

PLEASE tell me that's either a parody or a marketing tool for promoting Tesla's Self Parking Technology ('see what happens when you don't have automatic parking?')

EM goes off on another parking tangent......this time during the Q4 earnings call.

 

[Skotty]

Just a reminder to everyone. We don't really know the specifics, and can't judge this particular case fairly. That's what things like trials and judicial hearings are for. All we can do is discuss related generalities. The complaint may be legit, or it may not, or something in between. It's a very serious topic, but it's judges and officials working on the case who are best qualified to collectively pass judgement on the merits of this particular case.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think this thread well illustrates the difficulty of stepping in another person's shoes. And I mean it all around, not just men seeing women. It is not always easy to see how gender issues are experienced and perceived across the spectrum. We are all trapped in our own experiences first - and only second can try to comprehend. We just have to keep on trying.

Having said that, I think it is also important to note that we only have Tesla's word on the third-party investigation results. We know from past experience that Tesla certainly puts positive spin on their own PR, sometimes quite a bit so like the latest P90DL shows (Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits).

An unreasonable disgruntled employee is not an impossibility either. Certainly history knows of many. But it may also be something in between. For example, personally I find the catcalls likely and terribly wrong if so. The promotion aspect for example could also be a perception issue, rather than a real issue in this case, due to the lack of degree etc.

I guess it will take the court case to learn more from both sides.

 

[Vitold]

Because biologically, on average, men's brains are better suited to deal with tasks used in engineering. Also, girls (again, on average) do not like engineering because they find engineering is boring. Apart from equality, I never understood the obsession with pushing women into STEM. Will it make the country more productive? Or the reason is to get leftie bleeding hearts something to fight for?

Lets assume that stats you quote are true. Average means that there are individuals with abilities above and below (Gaussian distribution). On what grounds would you deny engineering position to 'above average' woman?

 

[McRat]

...
So, is it OK with the engineering field for anyone to claim that they are an engineer even though they have no education, no training and no understanding of all the science inherent in these fields? ...

Oh absolutely. Those are the ones in highest demand. "Wanted: Biomedical Engineer who likes to kill people accidentally, pay commensurate with inexperience."

 

[bonnie]

So, is it OK with the engineering field for anyone to claim that they are an engineer even though they have no education, no training and no understanding of all the science inherent in these fields? Can the plaintiff in this case open an office and call herself an engineer?

What's clear is that she was called a manufacturing engineer by a company who knew her background. I'm not commenting on the rightness or wrongness of her case, only saying yes, she can say she has worked as an engineer.

Companies don't just hire engineers based on resume. Usually you have intense interviews, where you are problem-solving (many times with near-impossible problems just so your problem-solving skills can be assessed) / demonstrating your skill sets, conducted by senior engineers. A resume showing a degree is nice if hiring for a junior position, because at least you know they finished something. But far more important is what you've accomplished in your career & how you handle the interview process.

My first boss at Intel was an executive VP, with no college degree. (Other Intel alumni on this forum might know who that is, if not, you can message me .) And he'd earned that position at a tech company.

After a few years in your engineering career, it's really about what you can demonstrate you know, not what school you went to. That just opens the first door.

 

[Doug_G]

I just moved a large number of posts to snippiness because they were sexist, personal attacks, argumentative, or simply off topic. I also moved any posts that quoted posts that were moved.

I probably didn't find all offending posts... personally I'm just annoyed that I had to read all that...

 

[Super_Popular]

I just moved a large number of posts to snippiness because they were sexist, personal attacks, argumentative, or simply off topic. I also moved any posts that quoted posts that were moved.

I probably didn't find all offending posts... personally I'm just annoyed that I had to read all that...

All I said was "wow" to someones super rude comment and mine got moved and I got a notification that I had made an inappropriate comment . I am hoping that was just a general notification.

 

[ohmman]

All I said was "wow" to someones super rude comment and mine got moved and I got a notification that I had made an inappropriate comment . I am hoping that was just a general notification.

When offending posts are moved, there is often collateral damage based on responses within the conversation. Your post would have had no context in this thread without the other post.

 

[CmdrThor]

When offending posts are moved, there is often collateral damage based on responses within the conversation. Your post would have had no context in this thread without the other post.

This is why I report seriously offensive posts instead of responding to them. Responding just feeds the troll. Still have zero posts moved to snippiness .. *crosses fingers*

 

[SpiceWare]

One thing I don't understand from the article is this:

she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint

Isn't this normal when somebody takes over a position?

From my experience positions have a lower and upper pay range. You tend to start out at the lower end. By the time you move on you're at the upper end. As such, somebody taking over a position would typically be paid less than the person who used to have it.

 

[jelloslug]

To the best of my knowledge, California doesn't regulate who can say "I'm an engineer". The regulated designation is "Professional Engineer" (PE), and that's the variety that stamps things for official purposes. There's a test.

I know dozens of self-declared engineers. A subset of those have degrees containing the word "engineering". A few of those have a PE certification (in a nod to the thread topic, one of those PEs is a woman). A PE can be essential for certain career paths, but a team of engineers might contain only one PE. I've never met a software engineer with a PE, but maybe we will see that change.

Rules differ by jurisdiction: Regulation and licensure in engineering - Wikipedia

As a generalization, PE certification is only seen in civil (and architecture) and nuclear engineering. I have never met a PE that was outside of those fields.

 

[Doug_G]

As a generalization, PE certification is only seen in civil (and architecture) and nuclear engineering. I have never met a PE that was outside of those fields.

I am a P.Eng. and electrical engineer.

 

[CmdrThor]

As a generalization, PE certification is only seen in civil (and architecture) and nuclear engineering. I have never met a PE that was outside of those fields.

My wife is an Electrical Engineer and is a licensed Professional Engineer. It was quite the process to obtain that license. She doesn't necessarily need it for her day to day work, but it does help when being considered for certain promotions. Additionally you have to have worked under a PE for a certain amount of time to become one yourself so it is beneficial to the company to have enough PEs on staff even if it is not required for the particular position they are in.