Firmware 9 in August will start rolling out full self-driving features!!!

[Bladerskb]

At the risk of nitpicking, yes it would be self-driving, not full self-driving and still L2, but self-driving nonetheless. When a car is able to drive from A to B without human intervention, that is by definition self-driving. Again, it might be L2 self-driving, but it would still be self-driving. Just because the driver is supervising, does not take away from the fact that if the car is able to drive itself without human intervention, it is still self-driving. You are thinking of full self-driving where the driver does not need to supervise. That is different of course.

No there is no such thing as "L2 self driving". We been through this like a hundred times. And yes this is what Elon is banking on, that people won't know the difference.

A system only becomes self driving from L3 and on-wards, aslong as someone must supervise the system and monitor the environment, then its not self driving period. This is from the NHTSA/SAE.

I agree that NOA in its current state is not FSD. But here is my question: IF in a future software update,Tesla removes the nags and NOA is able to do highway driving with no nags, no stalk confirmation and no driver intervention, how would that still not be some level of self-driving? Of course it would be!

No it won't unless they said you don't have to pay attention and you can read a book, watch a movie, etc.
The only difference between self driving and non self driving is the driver has to pay attention and monitor the system/environment.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

How will the complex parking lots thing work in Europe when you're not even allowed to use your fob?

Use the phone app. I can't imagine Enhanced Summon (and remote controlling the car) will be enabled via the fob anywhere.

 

[diplomat33]

A system only becomes self driving from L3 and on-wards, aslong as someone must supervise the system and monitor the environment, then its not self driving period. This is from the NHTSA/SAE.

No it won't unless they said you don't have to pay attention and you can read a book, watch a movie, etc.
The only difference between self driving and non self driving is the driver has to pay attention and monitor the system/environment.

You are correct about levels classification but what I am saying is that any car that can drive itself without the driver paying attention is demonstrating self-driving behavior even if it is not classified as a self-driving car. In other words, any car that can drive itself without any human intervention or paying attention is in practice indistinguishable from a self-driving car even if it is not classified as one.

 

[emmz0r]

Use the phone app. I can't imagine Enhanced Summon (and remote controlling the car) will be enabled via the fob anywhere.

No, I mean in Europe you have to constantly press and hold "Forward" and "Backward" so it acts as a dead man's switch. Advanced summon would be impossible under these requirements.

 

[boonedocks]

If the system becomes so reliable that the driver does not need to pay attention or monitor the environment or system, then it effectively becomes capable of L3 even if the system is not classified as L3.

Basically, what I am saying is that any car that can drive itself without the driver paying attention is demonstrating self-driving behavior even if it is not classified as a self-driving car.

But that is NOT what we have with EAP. You are dancing all over the place and not seeing the dichotomy of what you are saying. We can’t have self driving, as you said we have in a previous post, when we are having to pay attention. Pick a lane and stick with it \i/

 

[MorrisonHiker]

No, I mean in Europe you have to constantly press and hold "Forward" and "Backward" so it acts as a dead man's switch. Advanced summon would be impossible under these requirements.

Originally, you asked:

How will the complex parking lots thing work in Europe when you're not even allowed to use your fob?

Regular summon via fob doesn't handle complex parking lots anywhere. All it does is move the car forwards or backwards.

When Elon mentioned being able to handle complex parking lots on the call yesterday, it was when discussing Enhanced Summon functionality. I don't know how you would expect to steer the car with the fob.

Can you use your phone for summon currently? If so, then I would expect you'd be able to use your phone for Enhanced Summon in the future.

 

[diplomat33]

But that is NOT what we have with EAP. You are dancing all over the place and not seeing the dichotomy of what you are saying. We can’t have self driving, as you said we have in a previous post, when we are having to pay attention. Pick a lane and stick with it \i/

Are you even reading my posts? I said "if" and "in the future". I am talking about a future version of NOA. I am not talking about the current version of NOA. I've already said that the current version of NOA is not self-driving.

 

[emmz0r]

Originally, you asked:

Regular summon via fob doesn't handle complex parking lots anywhere. All it does is move the car forwards or backwards.

When Elon mentioned being able to handle complex parking lots on the call yesterday, it was when discussing Enhanced Summon functionality. I don't know how you would expect to steer the car with the fob.

Can you use your phone for summon currently? If so, then I would expect you'd be able to use your phone for Enhanced Summon in the future.

What I meant was that in Europe you are not allowed to use the fob for "regular" summon as it is now, because it can't be used as a dead man's switch, requiring constant presses. So you are forced to use the mobile app to hold "forward" and "backward" pressed. Shall you sit and watch it park itself for the entire time while having a button pressed at all times???

Now, my question is how will the car be allowed do find a parking lot on it's own ???

 

[boonedocks]

Are you even reading my posts? I said "if" and "in the future". I am talking about a future version of NOA. I am not talking about the current version of NOA. I've already said that the current version of NOA is not self-driving.

I do apologize. I did miss this "without any driver intervention or nags, then I would consider that to be highway self-driving" in one of your posts. Reading your responses back to a couple of posts did cloud that statement to me a little but definitely not your opinion so I do apologize.

 

[diplomat33]

I do apologize. I did miss this "without any driver intervention or nags, then I would consider that to be highway self-driving" in one of your posts. Reading your responses back to a couple of posts did cloud that statement to me a little but definitely not your opinion so I do apologize.

No problem. It happens

 

[diplomat33]

Here is the bottom line for me: if we get a future update that makes NOA able to reliably do lane changes without driver input then we will have a pretty good ADAS IMO. I don't care that it won't be FSD. And if Tesla does release a "FSD" package that is basically the same as EAP/NOA but it can also reliably stop at stop signs and traffic lights and turn at intersections, that would still be pretty cool. I won't care that it does not meet the definition of FSD. Hopefully, the system will be good enough that Tesla can eventually turn off the nags but if they don't, I won't be mad.

 

[boonedocks]

Here is the bottom line for me: if we get a future update that makes NOA able to reliably do lane changes without driver input then we will have a pretty good ADAS IMO. I don't care that it won't be FSD. And if Tesla does release a "FSD" package that is basically the same as EAP/NOA but it can also reliably stop at stop signs and traffic lights and turn at intersections, that would still be pretty cool. I won't care that it does not meet the definition of FSD. Hopefully, the system will be good enough that Tesla can eventually turn off the nags but if they don't, I won't be mad.

I hear'ya I just want to be able to do my daily ~100 mile (95% expressway) commute without nags. It'll be worth the $$$ I pre-paid for FSD if it will just do that.

BTW my state "regulators" in Georgia have already approved FSD on our roads. The delay here has been and will be Tesla

 

[NerdUno]

Where the heck is the speed sign reading btw?

I've had it for months... in my I-Pace.

It even slows the car down when you hit a different speed zone.

But don't worry. Elon's got it scheduled for February... some February.

 

[conman]

Elon's got it scheduled for February... some February.

Really? I don't recall him ever mentioning it even. I must have missed that one.

 

[diplomat33]

Where the heck is the speed sign reading btw?

I imagine Tesla is waiting to roll it out with the "FSD" software update or at least roll it out with the stop sign software update.

 

[Interferon]

But that is NOT what we have with EAP. You are dancing all over the place and not seeing the dichotomy of what you are saying. We can’t have self driving, as you said we have in a previous post, when we are having to pay attention. Pick a lane and stick with it \i/

Why? EAP doesn't.

(stick with a lane, that is)

 

[Interferon]

I hear'ya I just want to be able to do my daily ~100 mile (95% expressway) commute without nags. It'll be worth the $$$ I pre-paid for FSD if it will just do that.

BTW my state "regulators" in Georgia have already approved FSD on our roads. The delay here has been and will be Tesla

Regulators are always the foil to divert blame.

I don't even mind that FSD is delayed. I just wish Elon would come clean and admit it is going to take a lot longer than anticipated instead of blaming "regulators", etc.

People will forgive you for a misstep. They are less likely to forgive you for actively deceiving them.

 

[TaoJones]

In not even heavy rain today, all cruise control, AP, and silent-E EAP features became unavailable again.
That's with supposedly all 8 cameras functional now.

Not ready for prime time now, and I don't see how a new board (AP3) helps.

This wasn't even slush obscuring the rearview camera. Just water droplets obscuring that as well, now that I think about it.

Add to that the utter uselessness of AP2's autowiper feature (settings 1 and 2), and it's just more evidence that those of us who downgraded from AP1 to AP2, let alone the whole 90D - 100D bait and switch, were indeed sold a big steaming pile of goods.

I'm not saying that the eagerly-anticipated AP3 board won't help. But it won't deliver FSD matching anything in the marketing bs from late 2016 or even that alluded to in late 2014 all by itself.

Gonna need some sensor/hardware rework, and for the love of Nikola Tesla, can we get a rearview camera that can function in a light rainstorm, let alone snow, almost SEVEN YEARS after (Model S) launch?

/goml

 

[CK_Stuggi]

EAP = Enhanced Autopilot.
Autopilot has frequently been described by Tesla as it's equivalent in aeronautics, namely as a human-supervised automated system. Essentially the L2 of aeronautics.
FSD=autonomous car, L3 upwards.
Any other definitions (ie automobile = self-mover) are distracting.

FWIW, I've been driving my AP2 90D ("upgraded" from AP1) without issues through all kinds of weather and have only once had AP2 not available. Most recent was the heavy snow and slush on Austria 3 weeks ago.

 

[rnortman]

The Tesla Network will come later.

Except it won't -- ever -- on currently-produced vehicles. All evidence other than Elon's claims -- which he and Tesla are steadily backing away from with every passing revision to the website -- points to truly driverless operation never ever ever happening in these cars. Tesla is very clearly repositioning "FSD" as an L2 system (maybe L3 in limited conditions on the highway) and erasing any implication of it ever being able to operate without a driver.

When Elon talks about the future and implies there will be truly driverless operations, he's talking about future generations of vehicles, not current vehicles. He is selfish and egotistical though so he's not coming right out and saying it, but rather letting current owners and prospective buyers continue to believe that he's talking about their cars. In his mind he justifies all this because he's saving the planet by "accelerating the advent of sustainable transportation" or whatever -- accelerating it with our money, but not giving us a direct return on our investment. No, he keeps the return for himself and his shareholders. He knows that if he comes clean now it means huge legal liability and reduced sales, and it would bankrupt Tesla in short order.

The advent of sustainable transportation, however, would still arrive. It's too late to stop that train. Of course he believes that only he, Iron Man, can do it, so he continues to lie, cheat, and steal.