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Four Upcoming Self Driving Level 3 Cars by 2019

Discussion in 'Autonomous Vehicles' started by Bladerskb, May 18, 2017.

  1. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    Around here in central CA, city police departments have increased enforcement on cell phone usage in cars: Adult drivers would be ticketed if caught holding a phone (hands-free usage is ok), drivers under 18 years old are not allowed to use phone at all whether hands on or hands-free.

    I would be less likely to get caught with a high speed autosteer on freeway than low speed zFAZ in city.

    Until California DMV would change its cell phone laws, it's another disadvantage against my interest in Audi zFAZ.
     
  2. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Senior Software Engineer

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    good thing zFAS works only on freeways.
     
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  3. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how Ford and GM are leading.

    Technology/safety-wise, Google/Waymo should be a leader.
     
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  4. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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    Good post. And the CES 2017 mobileye keynote is a good summary.

    Audi: I agree this is the first level 3 system, a great step for autonomy. Hopefully in a few years they can bring it to full speed on highways. But I agree that this is one of the most advanced systems out there coming at the end of this year. First level 3 sold to general public.

    Nissan: I am very excited about propilot 2.0 in 2018, for multilane highways and autonomous lane changing.... can't wait to see some more updates. However, Nissan has clarified this is not Level 3, its a level 2 system like EAP. Nissan also said in 2020, there "intersection autonomy" will also be L2. Nissan and Tesla seem to be the only companies pushing advanced L2 systems, where the other companies are focusing on L3 and L4s to work in certain conditions.

    Volvo: I was away of DriveMe, but I was unaware that Volvo is realizing a car in 2019 with this technology... source?

    Honda: I am looking for a source on this too?

    I imagine you are looking at the chart that Amnon Shashua showed at CES 2017? I am curious about this and have some questions. Think you can please direct message me?


    Bladerskb already explained this, but yes this is a level 3 system. This is the first and only system this advanced available. If the system gets in an accident, the driver is not at fault, Audi takes responsibility for it.. This difference is night and day compared to Tesla AP.

    Tesla Autopilot has no plans to go to level 3. and will probably jus jump to level 4, around 2020.

    EAP is not targeted to that. EAP is only going to be Level 2, where the driver still has to monitor the environment and take over instantaneously. and human is responsible for vehicle 100% of the time.

    I am not sure california's laws exactly. but in most states the laws are something like, "cannot use call phone, or cannot text when driving or when operating a motor vehicle" ... with this Audi system... you will not be driving, not operating a vehicle, not responsible for the car.

    If a cop pulls you over, you can say, "sorry, office I was not driving." And you could take him to court and win. Audi/the computer is driving and is responsible. This is quite different form current systems in the road by Tesla and other, which are L2, and only driver assist systems.
     
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  5. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Good luck trying to win that case under today's legal framework. For their part, Audi has come out and said they will not release it in consumer hands until there is explicit legal framework to allow for it.
    Audi's A8 self-driving tech depends on regulatory changes
     
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  6. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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    Audi was waiting for Germany to update their laws for it. Which Germany has done now.

    Also, there is no law in the US (in most states) that outlaws or bans autonomous vehicles.
     
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  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Well there was no law in Germany that outlaws or bans autonomous vehicles either. What Audi is talking about is the legal uncertainty. They aren't going to let the consumer hold the bag in terms of fighting lawsuits involving the vehicles. So they are going to wait for regulations to catch up.
     
  8. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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    We'll see Germany did pass laws now that allows for autonomous vehicles, and puts companies responsible for accidents when driving mode is on. So this would work with Audi Traffic Jam Pilot. And they may enable it in US too even if it is a grey area. This will force countries to make regulations.
     
  9. croman

    croman Active Member

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    You aren't familiar with the US legislative process, are you? We have a very complicated and tortuous system of creating laws. Even administrative agencies must create, publish, refine, republish, approve rules and regulations. Then we have local municipal, county, state, and federal layers of laws that regulate driving.

    In no jurisdictions would your fantasy of getting into an accident and telling a Judge "I wasn't driving -- Audi was" will work. Sorry to burst your bubble. It might work in Germany with this new law, but that's not how things work here.

    Also the German law, like those in California, Nevada, Michigan (recently) and some municipalities (such as Pittsburgh), only allows commercial testing, not actual consumer use (yet). It has a sunrise and recheck provision in 2018 when they anticipate actually testing the L3 Audi autonomous system.

    There are still outstanding provisions that aren't finalized that will prevent its implementation such as data collection, privacy, handoff timing requirements, and the specifications for the "black box" which serves as the proof of driver vs. system culpability. Like with Tesla, it is likely that many accidents will happen where drivers thought their system was driving or where the system disengages without a proper handoff and the driver has their eyes off somewhere else (engrossed).

    So, in short, I expect Audi to debut its L3 but don't think the legal framework is anything but a giant clusterF.
     
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  10. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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    You are wrong.

    ""In no jurisdictions would your fantasy of getting into an accident and telling a Judge "I wasn't driving -- Audi was" will work. Sorry to burst your bubble. It might work in Germany with this new law, but that's not how things work here.""

    This will work even in the USA. Audi has said so themselves they will claim responsibility for accidents. This is definition of L3.
    Similarly, Volvo in Sweden, is claiming responsibility for any accidents there L3 program causes.


    I feel it will be many years before a real L3+ system is at fault for any accident. and even when it does happen, it will extremely rare.




    ""Like with Tesla, it is likely that many accidents will happen where drivers thought their system was driving or where the system disengages without a proper handoff and the driver has their eyes off somewhere else (engrossed).""

    this is also wrong. This is totally different kind of system that is in Tesla's and other L2 systems.

    These systems do not disengage without a proper handoff... If the human does not take over in a L3 system with in 15+ seconds(varies) then the system will pull over and come to a complete stop.

    totally different from a L2 system.
     
  11. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Senior Software Engineer

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    Source?
     
  12. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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  13. brkaus

    brkaus Well-Known Member

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    Just to throw a hypothetical out there -

    Owner fails to maintain tires - so bad cords are showing (this happened in my BMW with staggered setup - rear inside wore out and I failed to notice it).

    Car driving on L3, has a blowout and wrecks. Who's at fault?

    Not a lawyer, not trying to cause arguments Kent's, but honestly curious.
     
  14. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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    L3 cars will need to be able to do diagnostics to make sure they are capable of driving.

    But also in some cases if the the system is unable to tell, in may be the owners fault if it is due to poor maintenance.
     
  15. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Senior Software Engineer

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    Help me understand because there is nothing there that says propilot 2 or their multi lane system or that even L3 highway won't happen in 2018 or that it will be years in the future.

    What is said however is how difficult level 3 is (Its pretty much as difficult as level 4).

    "At Nissan we do eyes-on, or what people call Level 2.”

    There he is referring to their current production system which is proPilot 1.
    However when talking about level 3, he says they can do highway level 3.

    “The hard thing with Level 3 and above is not having a human in the loop and so we need to take these steps carefully to get people to trust the technology before we are willing to take those steps. It has to use a system that can drive everywhere ‘acceptably’. With highway driving I believe we can do it but city driving is a different ball game. Nissan would like to cross that divide and we would like to deliver the capability of driving in the city because it might be safer if we provide these sensor technologies in autonomous vehicles.”


    Then he said urban level 3 will be up to 5 years away.

    “If I can provide a reasonable value for people to drive eyes-off in the city in ways that are safe and where they don’t have to constantly look up and see what’s going on that’s a difficult proposition. "

    This article actually supports my thread and view on nissan, thanks :)
     
  16. Snuffysasa

    Snuffysasa Member

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    #36 Snuffysasa, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017

    So you may be right on this actually. I am reading it carefully now.

    So he is saying L3 city driving is 5 years away, but L3 highway could happen sooner? like 2018?

    What does this mean for the 2020 system then?

    Also If Nissan , Volvo, Honda release L3 systems in 2018/2019. I am not sure they will be available in US. May be Japan only or Sweden only.
     
  17. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    FYI: Ford and Chevy are both doing OTA updates now:

    Ford Using OTA Update To Add Android Auto & Apple CarPlay To Sync 3 Outfitted 2016 Vehicles (It would be awesome if Tesla would push us an update to add Android Auto and Carplay - or even regular USB connectivity to my phone, honestly)

    From the Chevy Bolt Manual:
    OTA updates.jpg
     
  18. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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  19. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Note, that's for infotainment systems only, while Tesla OTA updates also affects the driving system. But it's baby steps and getting there slowly. It'll be interesting to see when they get to the driving system if they'll also do some of the more controversial adjustments Tesla is doing (related to performance and charging speed).
     
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  20. paraglide

    paraglide Member

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    Just found this thread, interesting to see Nissan failed to meet their 2.0 highway feature set in 2018 (I see no mention of it anywhere yet) and Volvo still seems to be using EyeQ3 despite video suggesting they would be on EyeQ4 by now. When is a Tesla AP competitor coming from other manufactures in economy cars?
     

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