Free charging for all EVs -- Should this be a thing?

[MarcoRP]

I've been on the PlugShare society for a year now, and I have seen some people complaining about charging prices, mainly in Ontario and you know why. However, I've seen complaints for charging at $1,50 - $2,00 and some about prices for charging in downtown TOR. Some users would rather base themselves on reliable/unreliable free charging than reliable paid charging. This is usually not the case for Tesla drivers because we already have a free charging network, even though some people abuse the free charging and juice their car up every morning before going to work. You could travel the East Coast on free EV charging but when you hit Canada you're in trouble. In Quebec, as all of you should know, "Le Circuit Électrique" , Quebec's most popular charging network only has paid chargers, or almost. In places like Van, there are multiple free locations around the city -- I must say, most of us are for paid charging in general terms but if we want to debate on this we can do it here. -- Info source: PlugShare -- Warning : the charger types used for this search are only CHAdeMOs, I know there are free SAE J1772s everywhere but this was more to indicate free fast charging.

 

[doubeld]

I disagree.
Nothing in life is free. There's an actual cost to generate that power and, and there's no reason it should be free. On that note, if a company wants to attract EVs by providing that service for "free" then it's up to them. But you're probably paying for that service anyway by way of higher retail prices at whatever establishment you're visiting.

The market will sort this one out. It will just take time.
If you're charging too much, the customer will go elsewhere. If there is nowhere else to charge, they will pay your exorbitant rates, or they will forgo buying an EV if this will happen frequently, or they will use an ICE for a particular trip. It's a simple decision in my estimation.
If there is no national/regional charging network, someone will build one (Tesla, Shell, BMW, etc.)

If you expect the government to subsidize this, then you will end up with a boondoggle and horrible cost and/or service inefficiencies. I 100% guarantee it. I think you don't have to look further than Ontario in the coming months to see evidence of this already.

 

[Doug_G]

If you make it all free, people will take it for granted and abuse it. They'll leave their cars plugged in overnight even though they are full. They'll toss the paddle in a snowbank when they're done, so it won't work for the next guy.

Even a token cost will prevent that sort of misallocation of resources.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

They should price it like Soda.

Not free, but cheap enough to get fat.

 

[igotzzoom]

No. Making something "free" distorts its value. Ideas should be free, not goods or services. Even "free" government services are not truly free. It's usually in the form or higher taxes, or in the case of the U.S. federal government, massive deficits and debt. The magic mean should be affordable enough to incentivize people to use it, but not so prohibitive to discourage it.

 

[Lloyd]

Nothing is free! Someone pays for the power!

 

[RandyS]

I've heard a phrase...."Free brings out the freeloaders"....

 

[brkaus]

Free doesn’t work. Agree with all of the above.

I think at some point free will turn into pay with validation. Like parking validation. Limited amount credit in return for purchasing goods/services.

A fill-up for an s100d is going to cost around $10. That’s real money someone has to pay. With today’s L2 charging rates, it’s about $1.20 hr. Possibly fair to provide ~$1-2 in return for going to a business. But as charging speeds go up, that cost is more per hour and it wouldn’t be reasonable return for the restaurant or store.

Or if some entitled car owner plugs in at the restaurant and walks to their office for the day. Getting $10 in electricity for nothing. Going to break the system. You could even argue that’s theft.

Of course, employers may provide free charge for a while as a perk. Malls may too... but as usage goes up those perks will fade away.

IMHO...

 

[Shock-On-T]

“Free” charging would act as an incentive to EV adoption, and would certainly accelerate the switch to EVs.

Whichever entity footed the bill would have to have something to gain, and I can’t think of any such entity.

It might be an interesting calculation to compare the amount of money a nation sends abroad for fuel, compared to the cost of providing homegrown electricity.
Eg. If Australians currently pay $100B/yr in fuel to opec, and the government could pay Australians $60B/yr to stop doing that (by paying for the charging) then perhaps it would be worth it.
You’d essentially be swapping a $100 fuel bill for a $60 tax bill.
Just spitballing, the numbers could be reversed as far as I know.

 

[MarcoRP]

@doubeld why do you disagree with me? I am all in for paid charging.

 

[MarcoRP]

I agree with all these. All the MECs in Canada offer free charging. Question: how many people that charge at MEC really buy something there? No they just go for the free charge. The MEC in Laval is like always in use, An IGA in Montreal always has a Tesla Model S plugged in for the night.

 

[scaesare]

I've never quite understood why bearing the expense for one's own transportation shouldn't be expected when owning an EV.

You had buy new sandals and acquire food on your own when we walked every where. You had to buy your horse and pay for/grow hay when we rode horses. We bought cars and paid for fuel for all of our lives.

Why all of the sudden do people buy EV's and expect the electricity to be free?

I suspect it's for several reasons:

- Some locations/organizations offer free charging as a perk, and human jealousy kicks in

- Lack of consistency... charge pricing/availability/capability/convenience is all over the map, so there's the tendency to try and scoop the best deal (when gas pricing is all within 3 cents of each other for a 50 mile radius, does anybody really shop around?)

- I think people are largely ignorant of what electricity costs for most applications are. The idea of a "kilowatt-hour" is still foreign to them. Ask them hat it costs to run their blender for 5 minutes or their ceiling fan for 12 hours is, and they'll have NO idea. They only know that their oven, clothes dryer, and car are bigger consumers of electricity than light bulbs.

What's more interesting is that people would be thrilled if they had a gasoline car with equivalent "miles per dollar" performance and the subsequent fuel cost reduction. They'd hardly bat an eye if their weekly trip to the gas station only cost them $9. Yet as the OP said they suffer problematic charging locations or go out of their way to camp out at a supercharger.

It's an interesting social/psychological phenomenon to be sure...

 

[wayner]

The other thing I don't like about free charging is that it can exacerbate the problems of peak demand. If you have free charging where you work then why should you charge overnight at home where you have to pay for your electricity? This adds to peak daytime demand, potentially causing more CO2 emissions and pollution as peaking plants will have to run.

 

[Saghost]

I don't think free charging is any sort of right or reasonable general expectation.

I do think free charging is an easy, inexpensive way to attract customers on certain situations, like the hotels with Destination chargers.

 

[brkaus]

You had buy new sandals and acquire food on your own when we walked every where. You had to buy your horse and pay for/grow hay when we rode horses. We bought cars and paid for fuel for all of our lives.

I think you nailed it! People are used to being able to give their horse grass from anyones yard along the way.

BTW, pay charging w/ a slightly higher cost than home charging would drive proper behavior. Folks that can charge at home would. The spots would be available for the folks that do not have a garage or home charging ability.


For me, "free" wore off after 3-4 months, I tried to sip at every free charger. Went to places and sometimes sat for hours to save a few $$. Figured it out... I was saving about $15 per month. I've stopped that now...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I don't think free charging is any sort of right or reasonable general expectation.

I do think free charging is an easy, inexpensive way to attract customers on certain situations, like the hotels with Destination chargers.

The important distinction is not whether it's free, but the conditions in which you are allowed to use it.

 

[brkaus]

The important distinction is not whether it's free, but the conditions in which you are allowed to use it.

True.

The thing that gets me is the expectations of the EV drivers. For example, there were some complaints a while back on a local EV mailing list. Someone was complaining that they drove to a vacation destination town. They stayed at "Hotel Extravagant" (their favorite hotel in the area that they have stayed at many years), but nearby "HotelDestinationCharger" would not let them charge their Tesla. And it was the only game in town. No fair, etc.

I've never noticed anyone stay at one hotel because it has their favorite mattress (but no food service) expect to walk to the hotel next door for their free breakfast.

 

[comanchepilot]

only if I get free gas for my 911, Cayenne and F150 . . .

NOTHING is free. Not even a mothers love. A parent pays in worry and lost sleep - and money. Nothing is free.

As others have noted the free market creates a proper allocation of resources. When Government disturbs the market with mandates and special requirements and picks winners and losers, it distorts the availability of resources. One need only look at Venezuela. Rice is basically free - its a staple 'the people' need. 5 lb bag of rice sells in the government store for 35 cents. But there is no rice at 35 cents. At a free market store, 5lbs of rice was $2. 6 times the price. But - until the government seized all the rice, you could buy it and eat. Now, no one has rice because the price of rice is 40 cents a pound -

By making electricity for vehicles free - you penalize people still driving ICE powered vehicles. you need to get the money for the electricity somewhere. So its most likely gas taxes go up - or - you put a surcharge on electric vehicle registrations to pay for the electricity. and instead of being $2 for a charge, all of sudden its $5 or $10 because you need people to assess and collect the tax, build and maintain the chargers, and account and pay the power company - thus - instead of the free market finding inexpensive ways to deliver electricity with unmanned computer powered charging stations, you increase the cost dramatically. Those public employees get union wages and pensions. . . .

Tesla needs to spin off the superchargers into a separate company with separate economics. If it wants to subsidize the business - great. It's what it promised. But then it locks out any new building - and you create a dense infrastructure of chargers by charging for using new stations - old legacy stations are still free and Tesla subsidized - new ones cost - but they're everywhere because there is an income source for them.

This way, if Tesla ever does screw the pooch because of its quality control finally killing it - the superchargers remain.

 

[MarcoRP]

The important distinction is not whether it's free, but the conditions in which you are allowed to use it.

Yeah, like hotels with Tesla Destinations chargers -- you are paying for the electricity by getting a reservation, some hotels get more clients specially because of the chargers

 

[comanchepilot]

Yeah, like hotels with Tesla Destinations chargers -- you are paying for the electricity by getting a reservation, some hotels get more clients specially because of the chargers

It's a choice for the hotel to have a destination charger. Their rules - their resources.

If you REQUIRE a hotel to have a charger all of sudden you change the relationship and cost equation of the charger - stops being a guest amenity and it becomes a government required mandate and a source of fees to a hotel. You need to live in the modern world to see the distinction. . .